Explanation and Best Buys for the Motion sensitive 2018 Edition

Dodgexander

Moderator
There are different aspects which constitute toward what makes a TV good for motion the main ones are:

  • How smooth an image is
  • How much blur an image has when it travels fast

These points are heavily controlled by source material. To give you an idea of the hz of different material:

24hz - Most common in Blu-Ray and UHD Blu-Ray, films and recent TV shows on Amazon/Netflix etc
25hz - Most common in broadcast TV. This includes on demand TV like BBC iPlayer, ITV player, ALL4, UKTV Play, Demand 5 etc
30hz - Most common in older american TV shows
50hz - Most common with sport, Sky/BT football/match of the day and formula 1..athletics still. Some older/less common sport may only be 25hz.
60hz - Most common with North American sport rarely will be here in the UK unless perhaps you somehow watch american satellite.

The higher the hz, the less judder you will notice in the source, the less blur you will notice too. TVs with higher hz can help this, but ultimately you are always going to be limited by the source hz of material.

TVs have different technology to reduce both judder and blur:

  1. Blank Frame insertion - This works by inserting blank coloured frames, usually black in between each frame. On LCDs at the same time the back lights strobe very fast to make the image appear smoother with less blur. Side effects include: flicker, darkened image.
  2. Motion interpolation - This work by inserting created frames, the frames are calculated to be a mix between the first and last and inserted inbetween. Side effects: Motion artefacts (such as a trail behind a moving ball), soap opera effect. (Link to video of example)
The higher hz a TV panel, the more frames can be inserted, whether it will be by interpolation or insertion. Currently LCDs let you apply blank frame insertion stronger than OLEDs. As far as I am aware this could be because they don't want to reduce OLED brightness any more but it could also be because an OLED doesn't have a backlight to strobe fast.

So to place TVs in different categories:

Best for motion:

These TVs use higher hz panels and can use blank frame insertion to achieve good motion without introducing soap opera effect:

OLEDs:
Panasonic: All
Philips: All
Sony: All
Sony: All
These OLEDs can't use blank frame insertion as strongly as LCDs, but they still rank very highly because they have less native motion blur to begin with. If its natural motion judder you are trying to avoid, you may wish to demo motion on these TVs first as you may not find them adequate enough with motion smoothness.

LCDs:
Samsung: Every QLED model. NU8000, NU8500
LG: SK8000 and higher (excl 49" SK8100/SK8000)
Panasonic: FX750
Philips: 8 and 9 series
Sony: XF83xx series (60 and 70" only), XF85xx series and higher other sizes.
Every tv manufacturer uses slightly different motion controls. They all now can use blank frame insertion, but some do it better than others. Some can't achieve quite the same level of clearness or smoothness without also using interpolation.
Currently (best to worse) Samsung, Philips and Panasonic let you have the best motion without using interpolation or introducing lots of flicker.
Sony rank a little lower in my opinion because they flicker a bit more than the others and can't meet the same levels of motion without also introducing slight interpolation also.
LG are probably the worse, they at least have blank frame insertion now but the can't set it very strongly and rely on interpolation a lot to get better motion.


Every other TV unmentioned but on the list in post 2 won't be as good with motion because either they don't have blank frame insertion at all or they have slower hz panels so they only let you use frame insertion by a small amount.

Its important to note that 99% of people will find the TVs not listed fine for motion and they will appear the same with motion out of the box. This guide only applies too:

  • People who actually go in to the settings of their TV and enable blank frame insertion and people are a sensitive to motion.
  • Gamers with Samsung TVs (NU8000 and higher) can use both dark frame insertion and motion interpolation in games now.
  • Gamers of other manufacturers such as LG, Panasonic and Sony may be able to use only dark frame insertion, but their implementation of it is not as good as Samsung's.

Who this doesn't apply too:
  • Those who don't turn motion options on in the settings.
  • Those very sensitive to the flicker used with blank frame insertion
  • Those who don't know how to raise their brightness after using blank frame insertion (you need to do this as the image darkens when using it).
With slower hz panels this does not mean that motion will not be good enough, of course some tv's are better than others out of the box and I'm sure some slower hz TVs will be more than enough for most people. Its worth noting I did not include the LG OLED range as they don't have blank frame insertion at all. They sill have next to no motion blur natively as they are OLED. If you are happy with motion out of the box with an OLED. These are fine. If you like motion with using interpolation and don't mind soap opera effect, these are also fine.

Please feel free to add/critique the info. This info is very heavily dependent on my own opinion with motion, by no means is anything set in stone.

A recent video did a comparison of OLED vs Plasma, here's the link to the motion part:
 
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Dodgexander

Moderator
Motion settings with most modern TVs.

  1. Use a Motion preset. Ranging from min to max in strength. These are presets each TV manufacturer have designed and include their own mixture of the custom settings for frame insertion and frame interpolation.
  2. Use custom settings and change the slider for frame insertion.
  3. Use custom settings and change the slider for frame interpolation.
  4. Set your own custom sliders to the best combination of the two settings above for you.
Black/Red frame insertion
This setting flickers the backlights behind the TV very fast and between each flicker inserts a blank black frame. In turn these black frames give you the appearance that motion is smoother and less blurry. This method is the most modern method of smoothing out motion. Its the best method as it doesn't introduce any soap opera effect where motion feels unnatural. Its side effects result in a flickering picture (some people find this can give them a headache) and it darkens the image, so after you have set this, you will need to raise the strength of the backlight/brightness to compensate. Some manufacturers let you customise this but some only toggle on/off. The higher the number you set, the stronger this setting will be, as a result the image will be most dark at the strongest setting and flicker the fastest, but the strongest setting will also give you the best motion.

Frame interpolation
Is the older method of clearing up motion. This setting works by asking the TV to create its own frames based on the previous frame and the next frame and calculating an image in a new frame that looks like it could be best placed in between the two. Because the TV has to calculate rather than insert a blank frame. It also means it is more likely to make a mistake doing so. As a result the side effects with this setting mean that it adds motion artefacts and soap opera effect - adding unnatural motion. The higher the number you set, the stronger the interpolation will be so the more noticeable artefacts and soap opera effect will be, however at the strongest setting, this will give you the smoothest image.

Some people don't mind adding soap opera effect, some people prefer setting motion interpolation to full.

I however think it's best just using frame insertion.

Film mode
Is an option added to some tv's detect a film is played back. This option is used to detect a film when it's played back at a non film frame rate, for example if you have a PC or media box connecting outputting 60hz when you are playing a film that is 24hz. The stronger its setting the more likely it will detect a film but the more likely it will detect a TV program incorrectly as a film causing strange results.
This is most useful for people where TV is broadcast at 30/60hz and not in Europe where TV is broadcast in 25/50hz. This is because in Europe tv channels already do conversion of film content from 24 fps to 25fps and it throws off film mode detection for many tv's. This is best being kept disabled at all times.

Have a play around and see what you find works best.

Key - Here are the names of each setting to best of my knowledge for each tv manufacturer.
Interpolation
Frame Insertion
Film mode

Samsung:
Motion settings found in Auto Motion Plus
Preset= Min>Max>Custom
Custom= Deblur & Dejudder 1>10
Led clear motion= On/Off
Film mode only= Set Preset to custom and Deblur and Dejudder to 0.*
Notes: With Samsung Deblur is for content less than 30hz and Dejudder is for content less than 60hz. This means 60hz tv's will be missing the Dejudder setting.
*With Samsung you cannot disable film mode if you also are using Auto motion plus settings.
Clear Plus


Sony:
Motion settings found in Motion
Preset=off>smooth>standard>clear>true-cinema
Custom= Smoothness=min>1>2>3>4>max & Clearness=min>1>max
Film mode=off>low>medium>high
Notes:
Film mode is needed to use interpolation. Stronger film mode = more mistakes in detection but stronger interpolation is used.

LG
Motion settings found in Motion>Truemotion
Preset= Off>Smooth>Clear>Clear Plus*>User
User= Deblur & Dejudder 1>10
Real Cinema = On/Off
Notes:
Motion Eye Care I'm not sure about it, it probably also uses a degree of interpolation. Best keep disabled.
*LG don't give you the ability to use frame insertion without interpolation. If you choose Clear Plus you get frame insertion but also with a little interpolation added in. Nonetheless its good LG LCDs finally have this feature. LGs OLED TVs do not have Clear Plus.

Panasonic
Motion settings found in Intelligent Frame Creation
Preset= Off>Min>Mid>Max>Custom
Custom= Blur Reduction & Film Smooth 1>10
Clear Motion= On/Off
Film Cadence Mode (extra options)= On/Off

Philips
Motion settings found in Motion
Presets (Perfect Natural Motion)= Off>Min>Mid>Max>Custom
Perfect Clear Motion= On/Off
Notes:
Film mode on Philips cannot be disabled when Perfect Clear Motion is enabled. But in Philips' case this is not a bad thing. As they are only sold in europe they tend to deal with motion fine.
There are no custom interpolation controls on the Philips. Only Presets.

Hisense
Motion settings found in Advance Picture Settings>Motion
Presets (Ultra Smooth Motion)= Off>Clear>Standard>Smooth
Notes:
I'm not actually sure how exactly Hisense motion works but I would take a bet they only use motion interpolation. The settings above will create Soap Opera Effect.
I also do not know how Film detection works, it's likely it isn't controllable and is on by default. It may also be a case that it is on only when Ultra Smooth Motion is set to Clear preset.

This info is to the best of my knowledge. Please correct me with any mistakes you find.

TV's with 60hz displays will have less options/less strength in both motion interpolation and insertion settings.

Panasonic, Philips and Sony's 2017 OLEDs have black frame insertion but they can't use it quite as strong as LCDs. This doesn't matter so much as OLEDs by nature have less native motion.
 
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daz606060

Active Member
Now this is the right thread for me saves me hijacking your hdr thread like I did, as a mod can you tidy that thread up to get it back on topic?

As you know I've played a lot with my Sony XE9005 motionflow setting over the last few days and my motionflow presets and custom settings are listed as follows.

Presets=off>smooth>standard>clear>true-cinema

Custom
Smoothness=min>1>2>3>4>max
Clearness=min>1>max

Film mode=off>low>medium>high

Hope that helps, hope you don't think I'm trying to correct you and please don't think I am I'm just letting you know what they are on my set in the hope they will help.

And thank you again for all your help.
 

daz606060

Active Member
I spoke to soon about my XE9005 it does have a motion fault, was sitting back and watching some classic f1 races on my sky box and noticed stuttering about ever 30sec so got my phone out and recorded it on my phone but it was hard to make out guess my phone does some processing to recordings that reduce it, so recorded it in slow motion and on play back you can clearly see it jump back a frame or 2 and always at the same places I thought it was my sky box, but I thought try it in game mode and see if it does it then I've head people mention to try game mode before for other tv's, so what would you know no judder even when recorded at the same point on the recording, so there really is a motion issue with my XE9005 I can repeat it over and over again but sadly I can't watch tv in game mode it looks pants.

So it's going back and I give up now I've had enough plus there's no good tv left in my price bracket I'll miss it but I can't put up with that nor should I have to for the that kind of money if it was cheap tv maybe, I tried other programs both recorded and live and can see it there and recorded it on my phone there too.
 

daz606060

Active Member
It does it with all processing that you can turn off, turned off, and with Sky box at 720p or 1080i, it does it with a Sky q box at 2160p as well and if anything it mite be getting worst or I'm just noticing it more.

I'm gutted to be truthful the picture is awesome, I'd try a replacement but the misses as had enough of tv's so it's a no go.
 

daz606060

Active Member
That's what I was thinking I'll try and get some over the next few days so I can test they have the issue on this TV, then I'll know that if I don't see it when I demo a TV it should be ok, I say should be because with all the software update on TVs now they can break just as much as they fix.

I want too demo the XE9305 and Q7F and wait till black Friday now I'm not paying there current prices tho, but saying that you get a complimentary UHD Blu-ray player and a Uhd Planet Earth 2 4K Blu-Ray and I could get a free Panasonic soundbar, but still it £1999 that's a lot of money to me.

Just wish I'd jumped on the Panasonic 58DX902 with a UHD Blu-Ray player and 3 movies for £1299 my local Richer Sounds had but no I got OLED instead :(
 

daz606060

Active Member
What to do regarding my motion issue now, Sony really want to get to the bottom of my issue and fix it swiftly, but I don't have to long to return it about 10ish days, but don't want to be stuck with this issue, just sent Sony another email let see what they say.
 
What to do regarding my motion issue now, Sony really want to get to the bottom of my issue and fix it swiftly, but I don't have to long to return it about 10ish days, but don't want to be stuck with this issue, just sent Sony another email let see what they say.

Just offering out a suggestion: Sony certainly won't be able to fix the issue within 10 days and there's a good chance that they never will. My experience is that motion issues are inherent to a panel's architecture and not something software is able to fix.

If anyone has an experience whereby a TV manufacturer has fixed their motion issues through a software patch i'd be happy to learn that there is another way. With that said if you don't return the TV for a refund within 10 days then you'll have to learn to live with the motion problem and if it gets fixed that will simply be upside not something to be expected.

It's a frustrating and disappointing situation, especially when you are in love with the picture it produces.

All the best :smashin:
 

daz606060

Active Member
Just offering out a suggestion: Sony certainly won't be able to fix the issue within 10 days and there's a good chance that they never will. My experience is that motion issues are inherent to a panel's architecture and not something software is able to fix.

If anyone has an experience whereby a TV manufacturer has fixed their motion issues through a software patch i'd be happy to learn that there is another way. With that said if you don't return the TV for a refund within 10 days then you'll have to learn to live with the motion problem and if it gets fixed that will simply be upside not something to be expected.

It's a frustrating and disappointing situation, especially when you are in love with the picture it produces.

All the best :smashin:

I'm going to how see what they say tho I know it won't be fixed in 10 days just want to know if they think it's hardware that's causing it so can't be fixed like you say it just inherent to panel or if they think it software so can be fixed.

I'm probably way of mark and wrong because I'm no experts but it could be the scene detection or something getting confused by the quick change of camera sometimes, it's a funny one for sure from my testing I've found that if you rewind the footage to just few seconds before the judder it doesn't do it but if you rewind say 10 seconds before it does the judder and it never does it in game or any of the photo modes strange.

And yes I love it apart from that issue, for my room conditions I think it beats the LG B6v I had but that's just my opinion.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
It depends what the issue is but it has been fixed before with software updates, sometimes it's been made worse too.

Maybe it's the new android tv that has broken it.

But I would return if you can still, good advice above. Return it and demo before buying again next time to be sure. You aren't responsible for Sony's beta testing.
 

daz606060

Active Member
It depends what the issue is but it has been fixed before with software updates, sometimes it's been made worse too.

Maybe it's the new android tv that has broken it.

But I would return if you can still, good advice above. Return it and demo before buying again next time to be sure. You aren't responsible for Sony's beta testing.

That's what I'm thinking just return it and wait for a deal/reduction on Q7F or XE9305 I don't mind paying a bit more then we did for this one of it gets a better TV but paying the current prices no.

Mite be hard to test for this fault tho tried a load off video's clips of things that are similar to what mite exhibit this issue on to a usb drive today and non of them showed the fault, so it looks like it's more only be hdmi sources that have this particular issue I noticed some judder but when tested on another TV it was the in encoding.

So will have to take my chances and cross my fingers that either the Q7F or XE9305 don't have this issue.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
Hmm

I know its not what you want to hear but I doubt it. Maybe Sony will improve it but Samsung have had micro stutter for years. Flatpaneshd.com found the Q7F to have it, likely the Q7 will too like the KS series did. Samsung Q9 review - FlatpanelsHD

The strange thing about it is it seems to affect some people and not others. The other strange thing about it is apart from with 1080i content on the hdtvtest on other sony models I haven't seen it mentioned before..I also don't know for sure if it is micro stutter or not.

I am guessing its down to how sensitive you are to it and what you watch. If you are watching this in everyday TV programmes though I'm not sure..really not sure.

The problem I guess you're going to have is repeating it in a shop if its via Sky only.
 

daz606060

Active Member
Hmm

I know its not what you want to hear but I doubt it. Maybe Sony will improve it but Samsung have had micro stutter for years. Flatpaneshd.com found the Q7F to have it, likely the Q7 will too like the KS series did. Samsung Q9 review - FlatpanelsHD

The strange thing about it is it seems to affect some people and not others. The other strange thing about it is apart from with 1080i content on the hdtvtest on other sony models I haven't seen it mentioned before..I also don't know for sure if it is micro stutter or not.

I am guessing its down to how sensitive you are to it and what you watch. If you are watching this in everyday TV programmes though I'm not sure..really not sure.

The problem I guess you're going to have is repeating it in a shop if its via Sky only.

I'll just take my chances if my next tv has motion issues it can go back too you get 30 days to return if faulty and judder is a major fault in my book, I mean even without the motion issue this XE9005 of mine as problems it turns it's self on it's done it 4 times so far, it's rebooted a few times, apps have locked up needing a reboot to get the tv working again, and the info banner pops up at random (that's one's a easy fix just turn it off in settings but you shouldn't have too) I could live with them tho so I'm not been to picky and there are a few reports of people having them issues on android 6.0 and 7.0 so more then enough problems to return it don't you think :D.

Edit: I'm not sure if it's micro stutter I don't really know what it is I'll have to YouTube it later and see, but when I record it on my phone in slow motion and play it back in slow motion it you can see it go back a few frames, you can clearly see Lewis Hamilton's car go backward on one corner on one clip I've recorded on my phone, and the strange thing is if you rewind the recording on the sky box about 3 or 4 seconds before the judder it doesn't do it, but rewind 10 seconds and it does the "judder" how strange, and it doesn't do the "judder" in game or photo modes at all.
 
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daz606060

Active Member
It's definitely problems detecting cadence then. It could very well be sky related. If view directly on tv does it do it?

I couldn't test F1 which I seems to notice it the most on as they have been on the summer break, but did notice it when using the built in satellite tuner on a few programs and the same program's that I notice it on sky with it.
 

daz606060

Active Member
One last try with a newer sky+hd box tonight going to have a proper test no rushing, I've marked down the time's that I see it in the race I'm going to test it with and on this box it 100% repeatable, no rushing going take my time, set the sky box up fully I'm not expecting it to be any better but this tv deserves another chance, so wish me luck I'll need it, and I'll update either way.
 

daz606060

Active Member
No change it still as the same issue sadly, and the sky box I got is one of the last sky+hd boxes is fare to say I'm total gutted, but it was worth a try for £5 plus I've now got a newish remote and a sky q high speed hdmi cable so the sky box was worth it for that price.
 

daz606060

Active Member
Neither can I I would try the XE9305 but it's a Sony and I can't be doing all this again to much stress :confused: and what you said about Samsung I'm think am I going to have a similar problem with the Q7F and OLED is off of the books for me to been there tried that not going back for few years at least, so where to go from here?

Thank you again for putting up with me and for all your help.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
I recently bought a second hand plasma on here for my dad. Paid £50 for it, it's about 9 years old and I love the motion on it. It may not be great in it's day with standard definition either but it looks a hell of a lot better than any UHD tv I've seen with normal freeview tv. Perhaps you could look out for second hand plasma tv's nearby instead? You could easily afford even a 65 model.

No tv is better at motion than a plasma still. OLEDs may have next to no motion blur but they aren't as smooth with motion.

LCDs rely on frame interpolation or insertion to get better motion but still fall short.

Out of the box you get the best motion from the late plasma tv's than any tv today.
 

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