expensive hdmi cables really?

AV21

Banned
Hi guys have a look at this link, is this price a mistake or does more expensive cables really make a difference. i am sure this cable in the link below must make a difference at this price.

but on a serious note i just bought a brand new jvc x30 projector from Allan at ideal av and cant wait to set it up but i have been looking all over the forums to find out what hdmi cable to get i dont want to get the cheapest maybe something in the middle, i need 12-15 meters so build quality is very important. i just want to get the best out of my system which will be high end apart from the projector as the setup will be in my living room i could'nt justify getting the x70 also i think the x30 is brilliant enough for me.

I am happy with cables i use for tv viewing (pioneer kuro) but thats only a 2 meter lenght. does a longer such as 12 meters lenght make any difference for picture and sound quality?

i know people on here say there are no differences between a £5 cable and a £100 one but has anyone on here actually tested a £20 cables against a £100 cable?

i hope they are all the same as that would be better for me. i wish Phil Hinton and Steve Withers would test cables for the furum members because i trust the Avforums reviews more than any other forum or magazines.

the link below is for a really expensive hdmi cable please have a look i was surprised when i saw it.

AudioQuest Diamond HDMI Cable 16m - FutureShop.co.uk
 
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Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
:eek::thumbsdow:lesson::facepalm:
 

AV21

Banned

larkone

Well-known Member
If the HDMI cable gives you a picture without any issues (sparkles etc.) then it is working perfectly, it will not magically improve anything over any other cable that also gives a picture and is working - at any price.

Save your money and enjoy feeling smug over those that pay over £11K for a cable. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
It’s so fantastically good and so over engineered that just like every other HDMI cable on the market it still can’t pass the High Speed test at anything over 8m – wonder how much it would cost to make that happen!!!

This bit is interesting ‘For audio signal, all HDMI's cable is directional. Please use cable arrows pointing from source to receiver, such as set-top box to receiver or monitor’. – I wonder if you get silence if you install it the ‘wrong way around!!!

99% of the content you are likely to view or listen to over an HDMI cable is carried as a highly encrypted signal (to be decoded at the Sink [Display or AVR]) how a cable can ‘target’ certain aspects of a video or audio signal which is encrypted has yet to be explained by these ‘high end’ HDMI cable manufacturers.

Complete marketing bo***cks all of it!

Joe
 

testdasi

Novice Member

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
What utter nonsense. If I saw the following quoted on this forum I would assume it was from some foreign spammer just throwing words together before he spams us his streaming links etc.

AudioQuest's founder and chief designer, William Low, explains the Dielectric-Bias System: “DBS puts all of a cable's dielectric into a comparatively high voltage DC field ... continuously from the time the cable is terminated. The exceptionally simple design uses a wire down the middle of the cable, which is simply an extension of a battery's cathode. This wire is attached to negative (-) of a DBS battery pack, and nothing else. It is not in the signal path and has no interaction with the signal. Depending on the model of interconnect (analog or digital) or speaker cable, an existing foil “shield” is used as the DBS anode by connecting it to positive (+) of the DBS battery pack. A battery terminal, anode or cathode, has no current waiting to pour out, as does the earth relative to a negatively charged cloud. A battery is a chemical reaction waiting to happen. Both poles of the battery have to be connected to each other in order to initiate this reaction. The point is that since the anode and cathode of a DBS battery pack are never connected, there is no current flow, only a potential across the dielectric (insulation) in-between the DBS field elements.”
These people really should be ashamed.
 

Sedgewick

Standard Member
Err......guys. I'm actually auditioning a 1.5 m audioquest diamond hdmi cable at the moment. I'm as big a sceptic as anyone.......hdmi works or it doesn't!!! Or so I thought....probably don't bother if you've got a 50" flat screen and soundbar, but with a decent sized projection screen (mines 120"diagonal 16x9) and a decent surround system, you really MUST audition this cable. The audio and video improvements are totally mesmerising in my system. Room boundries disappear, panning is even more seamless, but the most improvement is in tonality especially with vocals. Video is sharper without appearing unnatural, depth of image increases....the whole picture looks more organic. Please don't think I'm nuts, I urge you to just try this cable if you have a decent system already. The hdmi I usually use is a good quality Chord
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Not possible!

Your Source is outputting a highly encrypted signal via HDMI, your cable is not capable of de-crypting, processing then re-encrypting the signal so how would any cable stock designer ‘target’ specific frequencies or characteristics of the underlying signal?

If you don’t already own one consider a decent Video Processor and someone who knows how to calibrate the system.

Joe
 

Sedgewick

Standard Member
Maybe not theoretically, but in practice it works. Have you actually tried this cable yourself in a decent system? There really is no need for a video processor if playing blurays at 1080p/24 from a good bluray player into a decent projector
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
‘but in practice it works’ – again its simply not possible, the signal is highly encrypted (scrambled) it is impossible for the cable to affect certain parts of the encrypted signal. How would the cable know where to look for the data it wants to target?

Yes I’ve seen all manner of cables in all manner of systems.

So a VP which is dealing with the unscrambled signal (before re-scrambling) and targeting specific parts of the signal has no beneficial effect but an (always expensive) HDMI cable carrying the scrambled signal can ‘improve’ the signal!

Joe

PS AQ are smart enough to not actually claim their stupidly expensive cables have any video benefits ‘While the focus of AudioQuest’s HDMI cables is groundbreaking audio, video performance is hardly an afterthought. All AQ HDMI cables are High Speed with Ethernet up to 10 meters and all will transfer 1080p/120Hz/3D video.’.
 

larkone

Well-known Member
Maybe not theoretically, but in practice it works.
So how in practice does it do this then:

'de-crypting, processing then re-encrypting the signal' and ‘target’ specific frequencies or characteristics of the underlying signal?

It is several strands of copper with no intelligence or electronics.
 

Sedgewick

Standard Member
Just try one in your own system, that's all I'm suggesting Joe. Don't tell me it can't work, because it does so in my system. Anyone out there tried one in their system and not found any improvements? I have a fully calibrated 100k plus system, good eyes and good ears. I know what they are telling me
 

blue max

Distinguished Member
I have a fully calibrated 100k plus system, good eyes and good ears. I know what they are telling me
If I spent 100k and a digital cable made a noticeable difference, I'd be asking some serious questions about my system. You must have been very disappointed with it before the flashy cable was added.
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
TROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
Only 4 messages posted and all on this thread.
 

Sedgewick

Standard Member
Totally happy before, but perfection is never reached......all systems can evolve...it's just even better now.....now how about some 12k Nordost Odins. Calibration allowed my projector to do its best with whatever it was fed, it's just being better fed than ever before. Isn't it fun having someone new with a different opinion!!!
 

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
Isn't it fun having someone new with a different opinion!!!
Everyone's entitled to their opinion. It's just that when someone comes on saying 2+2 = 5, when everyone else knows 2 + 2 = 4, you start to have a few issues.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
‘it's just being better fed than ever before’ – so now with your passive, HDCP defeating, filter (sorry cable) in place you need to recalibrate the system!

Joe
 

andy1249

Distinguished Member
Only six posts , all on this thread , saying the impossible is possible , my money says he has a vested interest.

Cable seller for sure.
 

Sedgewick

Standard Member
A retired dentist actually. I don't even own this cable, I'm just trying it out. Notice all replies are regarding video, nothing on audio, or is this impossible. As for the afore mentioned shoot out and no discernible differences noticed. This 'test' used a 55' tv I believe. Any half decently mastered Blu-ray Disc or actual player will look more than acceptable on this sized display. When you start to blow the size up several times this tv, you can easily differentiate between so-called reasonable discs and players, and those which are truly reference quality. I certainly accept that 2 +2 = 4, do you guys know that the earth is spherical? Why do you guys all have the same opinion that this cable cannot make a difference........I don't mean in the sense that I'm wrong and you lot are right, I just thought some of you might be a little more open minded. All I'm suggesting is that some of you, if you have decent av systems, and I'm sure that most of you do and aren't all watching movies on a tiny 55' display, just arrange to TRY this cable out. Those of you with good sound systems will be truly impressed. How about a truly revealing shoot out then.....if any of you lot live on the South Coast UK near Chichester, lets compare hdmi cables via a good reasonably priced projector, 12' screen, and high end 7.1 surround system
 

larkone

Well-known Member
Why do you guys all have the same opinion that this cable cannot make a difference........I don't mean in the sense that I'm wrong and you lot are right, I just thought some of you might be a little more open minded.
Nobody here has a closed mind but the reason you are getting the same response from all 'guys' is because we believe in the science not the mythical claims of the snake oil cable merchants who have a vested interest in selling you expensively dressed copper at huge profit margins.

The links to the reports where these things have been tested show this. Not one cable manufacturer has ever managed to produce test results that support their claims and some have been taken to task by the ASA over exactly this issue and their unsubstantiated claims.

HDMI transmits in an encrypted (HDCP) packet based format, a piece of copper cannot decrypt the packets of data and know exactly which 'bits' in each packet to change to improve audio or video and exactly repeat that for each and every packet in real time. Not unless the laws of physics governing what copper is and it can do have changed recently. On top of that there is error correction that looks for changes in the data and if there are any will re-transmit the packet. If the cable was continually changing the data then nothing would ever get through. The only time when changes in the signal over HDMI will be noticeable is when it cannot transmit the signal and the error correction cannot recover and then you will see sparkles on your screen.

There is a case to be made for cables using analogue based transmission to make a small difference but not in the digital domain. Save your money and buy a £10 cable - there will be no difference in picture or audio quality to an expensive one.
 

andy1249

Distinguished Member
Why do you guys all have the same opinion that this cable cannot make a difference........I don't mean in the sense that I'm wrong and you lot are right, I just thought some of you might be a little more open minded.
Again , a question of someone using the phrase "open mind" to ask people to believe in the impossible!

I'm in Semiconductor Design , HDMI being one of my specialities .... I dont think its impossible for a HDMI cable to make a difference in sound or picture , I know it for an absolute fact.

The job of the interface is to get the data from source to sink unchanged , with HDMI it does this with a tolerance of 1 in a billion bit error rate.

You cannot even bring the usual favourite of the cable seller "Jitter" into the equation because everything is reclocked at sink , so under no circumstances whatsoever can the cable play any part in picture or sound quality.

As far as the cable goes , it either works perfectly or not at all.
Failing cables produce gross errors , totally unwatchable content.

Subtle changes resulting in a quality improvement would require very specific changes in data , and no piece of copper wire can manipulate data like that.

Theres no room for opinion here , thats the way it works , its engineered that way , no magic involved , end of story.
 
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Alan Mac

Active Member
As for the afore mentioned shoot out and no discernible differences noticed. This 'test' used a 55' tv I believe. Any half decently mastered Blu-ray Disc or actual player will look more than acceptable on this sized display. When you start to blow the size up several times this tv, you can easily differentiate between so-called reasonable discs and players, and those which are truly reference quality.
The resolution does not depend on the size of the screen. THere is no good reason why a 55 inch screen size should not be employed for critical assessment of picture quality.


Alan
 

Sedgewick

Standard Member
Alan I notice you have both a Denon bluray transport and also an Oppo93. Any preferences for certain disc formats?
 

Alan Mac

Active Member
Alan I notice you have both a Denon bluray transport and also an Oppo93. Any preferences for certain disc formats?
No preferences apart from the obvious, Blu-ray preferred to DVD.

Originally I had an american (US) Sony Blu-ray player and imported Region A Blu-ray discs. It was initially cheaper to import BDs and the choice of titles was much greater. Later, as Region B became established, the Denon DVD 2500 BT was added to provide Region B capability.

The Multizone Oppo 93EU replaces these two, providing Region A and Region B Blu-ray in a single player. It also adds Super Audio CD (SACD) capability.


Alan
 

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