1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Evolution

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Rock Da Bass, May 23, 2005.

?
  1. No, the Earth is only a few thousand years old.

    4 vote(s)
    5.3%
  2. Yes, he got it just about spot on.

    63 vote(s)
    82.9%
  3. Neither, I've got my own theories.

    9 vote(s)
    11.8%
  1. Rock Da Bass

    Rock Da Bass
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2002
    Messages:
    5,387
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    EU
    Ratings:
    +631
    Hi all,

    I was doing a 'google' to find a piece of software to simulate evolution and stumbled across a load of sites (mainly American Christian) where they completely tried to debunk the whole Theory as presented by the world's 2nd greatest ever scientist, Darwin.

    There's whole pages of waffle about how man and dinosaurs must have co-existed because the Earth is only a few thousand years old etc etc. statistically evolution couldn't happen and so on.

    Just a basic grasp of the principle of evolution IMHO makes it plain that it's inevitable (survival of the fittest etc.).

    Maybe a God did start off the whole big bang thing and put the ingredients in place, but some of the denial of basic science in this day and age just because the Bible says otherwise amazes me. It's like when the Church stopped Copernicus from telling people the Earth revolved around the Sun!

    Anyway, I may be in a minority on this one, so thought it would be interesting to make a poll to check out general opinion.

    BTW, the original search for the program was because I'm thinking of trying to write one myself for a course. The poll results will make useful background info.

    RDB :)
     
  2. Seth Gecko

    Seth Gecko
    retired member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2004
    Messages:
    3,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +193
    Check out Penn & Teller's Bull**** TV Show - they've tackled Creationism in season 1 and The Bible in season 2. Very entertaining and funny. First 2 seasons are on R1 DVD.

    Wouldn't recommend Season 3 ep 1 for the weak of heart though - Circumcision (ouch.........)
     
  3. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    7,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Near London.
    Ratings:
    +208
    Have to admit that I wouldn't rate Darwin as the world's second greatest scientist ever but I certainly think he got it right with The Origin of Species and his following work. :)
     
  4. Garrett

    Garrett
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    33,123
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    The best thief you’ll never see.
    Ratings:
    +4,368
    I’m incline to believe that.

    What ever it is beyond our comprehension haw the heck can there be nothing and that nothing cause an explosion and some will say if there is a god who made him.

    I tend to the believe Genesis is an analogy (re the first 7 days) rather than what actually happened.
     
  5. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    God got stoned with a bunch of pixies and they hid a load of massive bones in under the earth for a daft laugh because they though it would be a giggle to confuse archeologists.

    Carbon dating is a scam perpetraded by agents of the devil - ie scientists.

    God also made 100 billion galaxies, each containing 10 billion stars just to make it pretty at night for us.
     
  6. smelly

    smelly
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,598
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +102
    Welcome back mate :D
    Just out of interest who would you rate as the top 3??

    BTW - I think Darwin was on the right track.
     
  7. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,778
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,194
    Nope. They told it like they thought it was. Nothing wrong with that. It only becomes wrong when masses of evidence is cynically ignored in order to maintain the churchs grip on it's "flock".
     
  8. mcfarfs

    mcfarfs
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,367
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Tunbridge Wells
    Ratings:
    +12
    Yeh, Havnt seen much of you for a while! Admittedly I got a D in GCSE Biology, but the theory of evolution makes sense to me!
     
  9. t-force

    t-force
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2001
    Messages:
    1,745
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Southampton, UK
    Ratings:
    +99
    That's pretty much how I see it. I find it hard to grasp that a cosmic accident is responsible for the whole universe - there must be some driving force behind it.
     
  10. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    7,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Near London.
    Ratings:
    +208
    Top 3? Very hard to say particularly as I've only really got a physics background and I'm not too familiar with the more historical figures.

    The ancient mathematicians were probably the most important in laying down the foundations such as Pythagoras; along with some of the modern types such as Fourier. Basically, without maths there just wouldn't be any worthwhile science or engineering IMO. :eek:

    From a physics standpoint I would probably nominate Newton, Einstein and Maxwell. Having said that, much of Maxwell's work is just rewriting work done by people like Gauss and Ampere... :)
     
  11. Garrett

    Garrett
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    33,123
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    The best thief you’ll never see.
    Ratings:
    +4,368
    If you say millions of year instead of days they pretty got it near.
     
  12. Miyazaki

    Miyazaki
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2003
    Messages:
    14,304
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +849
    I live with 5 other people in my house, all of them but 1 fundamentalist Christians who believe the world isn't more than 10,000 years old, that the people who died in the boxing day tsunami deserved it because they weren't Christian, that all homosexuals are just as bad as murderers and paedophiles, that everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to hell. That's right, Ghandi is in hell along with the likes of Atilla the hun. Yet people who believe in Jesus are in heaven, which includes the likes of Hitler, the pope, and many other bastards. :mad:

    I love them all (my family that is, not Hilter and Ghandi) , but IMHO religion is the biggest load of nonsensial baby diarrhoea spouted from some of the most small minded hypocritical morons to have ever been born.

    If you don't believe in evolution, then as far as I am concerned that is all the evidence I need to label you a moron. Not convinced? Read anything by Darwin, or any of his contemporarys such as Richard Dawkins.
     
  13. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,778
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,194
    Huh? They weren't even close! Again, this idea of an analogy shows no empathy with the historical context. For an analogy to work you have to have some frame of reference. They had none. Hence they made the best of what knowledge they had. Sorry m8, I've had this argument out with a few theologians in my time............. :D ;)
     
  14. vonhosen

    vonhosen
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,835
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +13
    Hawking was awarded by the catholic church. Because the big bang theory gave them a momment of creation, following years of steady state theories (even if it wasn't exactly as it said in the bible).

    I'm with darwin on the evolution of the species.
     
  15. alancolledge

    alancolledge
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    518
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Middle England
    Ratings:
    +5
    Religion is a man made creation to answer unanswerable questions.

    My logic tells me this which rules my life. Logic tells me that I will go mad if I knew my existence was finite and will end when I die.

    My logic therefore tells me to believe in religion........do they call that a paradox?

    Darwin's right the other nutters who choose to make up there own version arn't valid in my world. :lesson:
     
  16. smelly

    smelly
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,598
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +102
    So is it possible to believe in both then? Is it possible to believe that Darwin is right but also have some form of religious belief ?? Or am I a paradox :D
     
  17. vonhosen

    vonhosen
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,835
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +13
    Missing link, looking at the avatar
     
  18. smelly

    smelly
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,598
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +102
    Doh and I keep forgetting :laugh:

    :rotfl: :rotfl:
     
  19. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    Pretty much every human being suffers from the same trouble - which is why relegion holds it power - that what we can't grasp, visualise or comprehend is filled in with some religous mumbo jumbo that explains it all if you simply 'believe'.

    Some people might say we have no direct evidence of the start or not of the Universe ... but we have some empirical measures - background radation, x-ray, gamma and radio waves from space - observable light, neutrino detectors, astronomical observation and mathematics that go at least some way to fit observational and experimental data ...... with God there is none , nada , zip. Nothing to observe, nothing to test, nothing to prove or disprove.

    Darwin made mistakes and did not get it 'right', but he got it close enough to go a long way to providing an experimentally and observably proveable model for life on earth and diversity of species on the planet.

    Modern evolutionary theory is not Darwins - its goes further and fixes his mistakes ... there may well be still be flaws and errors in it, but it is provable enough to be undenyable that it is basic 'rough fact'

    --- if you drove from London to Glasgow, we might have evidence of where you started, we might spot your car at various points along the way and we know where you ended up. Thats not to say we might make a small mistake on some of the minor roads you took, but overall we can say that we know your journey. Those that deny evolution are pretty much the ones saying - ow look you said we went on the M42 to the M6 but we actually went round to the M5 so that disproves all of it ...... failing to see the point that we still joined the M6 and still drove to Glasgow.

    Anyone that disputes this is to be quite honest is either 'lacking in education' or 'dillusional'. They might as well deny that the world is round or revolves around the sun ..... or tht 2 + 2 makes 4.
     
  20. Master Rahl

    Master Rahl
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Who else voted #1?
     
  21. t-force

    t-force
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2001
    Messages:
    1,745
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Southampton, UK
    Ratings:
    +99
    I'm not disputing evolution at all, nor at the heart of things do I dispute the big bang. It's what went before that that I've yet to see anything tangible proposed about.

    "God said, 'Let there be light', and there was light." There's the big bang, and a reason for it. The big bang theory makes perfect sense, but without any decent theories put forward as to what went before and caused it, my underlying feeling is that there is/was a "higher power" in its instigation.

    I'm actually breaking my own rules here by getting into a discussion about religion, because generally they get far too heated in my opinion, but there you go.
     
  22. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    Alot of the issues over the big bang / what came before vs God / Higher power is the 'something from nothing' or Infinity concepts that are so hard to rationalise or deal with for the human mind.

    Problem is , if people wish to grasp onto the idea that God made the universe because it couldn't simply have always been there nor could it have come from nothing ....... where did God come from ? and where was he at the time ?
    There is a paradox that most people 'skip' that under inspection causes the 'God get out clause' to fall flat. They choose to simply accept a 'higher power' and therefore abdecate all resonsabilty for explaining how he/she/it could exist prior to the universe - becasues as they have already stated 'something from nothing' and 'infinity' are concepts that can't accept.

    'God was in another Dimension' ------ so could the Universe have been
    but where did that other dimension come from and when did it start. Think of it like Russian dolls ......
    You end up having to explain it away with an Infinite number of dimensions / universes and or Gods, or a God with Infinite powers - and you are left with the situation of dealing with Infinity again ..... the very thing we say simply can't be to prove the existance of God in our minds.

    Just because we can't explain or rationalise certain concepts does not mean that they validate the existance of a God - we have imperical data and observable facts that at least partially if not totally validate Darwin, Evolution, the big bang, black holes ..... still none for God

    If the Earth is only a few thousands years old, why do we find fossil remains of algae from 600million years ago.



    ;)
     
  23. Ed Selley

    Ed Selley
    AVF Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,942
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,309
    We're all in our imagination.
     
  24. GrahamC

    GrahamC
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    2,258
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Morecambe, U.K.
    Ratings:
    +67
    It's a puzzler, and what about consciousness...
     
  25. CrispyXUK

    CrispyXUK
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,714
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    Land of the Living, Essex
    Ratings:
    +33
    2 People voted 1? are they blind to the world around them? (no offence) we have seen evolution happen around us, how can you deny it?

    Anyway, knew a Jehovah once who said they beleive in creation not evolution, so when humans evolved from one stage to another he said it was exactly the same except each stage was created? sounds pedantic to me
     
  26. Marc

    Marc
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2004
    Messages:
    11,610
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Portsmouth
    Ratings:
    +1,081
    i think the theory of evolution is a hell of a lot more tangible than a talking snake and rib girl. how do christians explain all the hard evidence of evolution such as homo erectus skeletons? Do they believe they were just a completely seperate species, i'd really love to know?
     
  27. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    usually 'la la la I can't hear you'
     
  28. FruitBat

    FruitBat
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2003
    Messages:
    3,301
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Ealing
    Ratings:
    +382
    Jeez, 5 alternative theories?
    Let's hear them then...
     
  29. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    13,871
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +9,616
    Put another way - who's prepared to admit they have less of a grasp of reality to most people?
     
  30. Master Rahl

    Master Rahl
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I do not believe in evolution or the big bang. Just one question though: where did the matter/energy come from for the big bang?
     

Share This Page

Loading...