EV to save the planet? Maybe not ...

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
The only reason EVs will not work for me at present is the lack of anywhere to charge.
This is probably the single biggest issue with EVs at the moment IMO.

It's no problem at all if you have a drive, but many people do not.
Many people park in the street, often in different places on the street depending how lucky they are. Many people live in apartments with parking but not specifically allocated.

So home charging is going to be very tricky to reach enough of the population.
 

Navvie

Active Member
Yet burn so much coal to produce electricity. Driving an EV that has been charged up by coal power kind of negates its green credentials
There's so much evidence against this claim. A quick google throws up a lot of results like this.

"EVs emit less lifetime CO2 than cars with internal combustion engines, even in countries reliant on coal for electricity generation"

EVs cleaner than petrol or diesel cars, even when the electricity comes from coal



The surprising truth behind the world's electric cars

 

Delvey

Distinguished Member
There's so much evidence against this claim. A quick google throws up a lot of results like this.

"EVs emit less lifetime CO2 than cars with internal combustion engines, even in countries reliant on coal for electricity generation"

EVs cleaner than petrol or diesel cars, even when the electricity comes from coal



The surprising truth behind the world's electric cars

The second article is taking its source from the first, so provide more evidence (and read said article). What would be interesting is to see how the compile the data. An ICE vehicle has a CO2 output as standard, but how do they calculate it for a EV powered by electricity from coal? And what cars are you calculating? New cars being sold in the EU since 2015 have had to have a CO2 per mile less than 130, and this will be reduced to 95 in a few years.
Also, Germany produces more of its energy from renewable than the UK, therefore the above graph does not show the whole truth, as surely it should have a lower CO2 than the UK if more of its energy is from renewable sources.

I am not disputing that EVs powered by coal are not pumping out less CO2 than ICE, but if you look at newer cars (which most EVs are) and compare them to ICE counterparts:
Renault ZOE will be 76.2 from above in the UK, Toyota Yaris Hybrid is 75.
So in Germany (supposedly) the US, Japan and China the Yaris pumps out less CO2 than an EV. Lets have a look at a Ford Focus and Nissan Leaf, similar cars
Again the Leaf in the UK will pump out less CO2 based on your figures, but the CO2 of a 1 litre Focus is 125g/mile, so less in CO2 in the rest of the world

As always such graphs should be taken with a pinch of salt unless you have the full set of data to study. And this does not take into account the effects of mining the raw materials for the batteries (wait until the amazon starts being chopped down, if they find the raw materials required their). (I am also aware that drilling for oil affects the environment)
 

Navvie

Active Member
The second article is taking its source from the first, so provide more evidence (and read said article).
I didn't want to post a graph without linking to where I got it from. I thought AutoExpress was worth linking to as it's a mainstream motoring publication/website. You are, of course, welcome to do your own research. As I said, there were many results to my google search.

I am not disputing that EVs powered by coal are not pumping out less CO2 than ICE, but if you look at newer cars (which most EVs are) and compare them to ICE counterparts:
Renault ZOE will be 76.2 from above in the UK, Toyota Yaris Hybrid is 75.
If a zero emission vehicle like a ZOE is "pumping out" 76.2 CO2s and a Yaris petrol hybrid is only 75 CO2s. I don't think you're comparing apples to apples.

So in Germany (supposedly) the US, Japan and China the Yaris pumps out less CO2 than an EV. Lets have a look at a Ford Focus and Nissan Leaf, similar cars
Again the Leaf in the UK will pump out less CO2 based on your figures, but the CO2 of a 1 litre Focus is 125g/mile, so less in CO2 in the rest of the world
The only way the graph I linked to makes sense - for EVs producing CO2s - is if it includes at least the production of electricity to fuel them with, that's part of what the article claims - even if you run your EV on electricity that is in part produced by coal, it's still cleaner than an ICE. If you take the ZOE figure of 76.2 you need to also include the production of petrol in the Yaris hybrid figures, not just what's measured at the exhaust - if you measure the ZOE emissions at exhaust... oh wait, no exhaust. Also, we need to include the transportation of petrol/diesel from the refinery to the petrol station.

(I am also aware that drilling for oil affects the environment)
Yet you don't include that in your figures above? Interesting.
 

Delvey

Distinguished Member
If a zero emission vehicle like a ZOE is "pumping out" 76.2 CO2s and a Yaris petrol hybrid is only 75 CO2s. I don't think you're comparing apples to apples.
This is based on your information above. I am comparing to similar sized cars, hence why I chose the Zoe and Yaris

The only way the graph I linked to makes sense - for EVs producing CO2s - is if it includes at least the production of electricity to fuel them with, that's part of what the article claims - even if you run your EV on electricity that is in part produced by coal, it's still cleaner than an ICE. If you take the ZOE figure of 76.2 you need to also include the production of petrol in the Yaris hybrid figures, not just what's measured at the exhaust - if you measure the ZOE emissions at exhaust... oh wait, no exhaust. Also, we need to include the transportation of petrol/diesel from the refinery to the petrol station.
Then you also need to include the mining of the raw materials for the batteries. Whilst we are at it, why not include the raw materials for tyres, the chassis, the suspension, any hydraulic fluid?



Yet you don't include that in your figures above? Interesting.
Again, these figures are probably available. But then why not include the CO2 from the coal/oil/gas mine/well to the power plant for EVs. And then what about the actual impact of mining these raw materials, since you are being so pedantic? Because coal mining and cobalt/lithium mining probably have a greater impact on the environment, from a producing perspective, than oil
Coal Mine:


Cobalt mine:


Lithium Mine:


Oil well:
 

gangzoom

Well-known Member
This is based on your information above. I am comparing to similar sized cars, hence why I chose the Zoe and Yaris


Then you also need to include the mining of the raw materials for the batteries. Whilst we are at it, why not include the raw materials for tyres, the chassis, the suspension, any hydraulic fluid?




Again, these figures are probably available. But then why not include the CO2 from the coal/oil/gas mine/well to the power plant for EVs. And then what about the actual impact of mining these raw materials, since you are being so pedantic? Because coal mining and cobalt/lithium mining probably have a greater impact on the environment, from a producing perspective, than oil
Coal Mine:


Cobalt mine:


Lithium Mine:


Oil well:
Your bias against EVs appear to be reaching a new level, a single mine supplies huge amount of raw materials for a battery pack that will work for 200k+ and than can be use for solar energy storage.

You also seem to have forgotten a single oil wells provides basically no output without been in a field.



Lets not forget what happens when it all goes wrong...



Its prettry clear you have your mind made up about EVs, which is fine. But hydrogen is no better as a fuel interms of sustainability than oil, which is why the likes of Shell/BP love it.

As for Toyota unless you understand the importance of not 'lossing face' in Asia culture you would not get their stubbornness to accept EVs. Nissan is one of the biggest supporters of EVs, Toyota have said time and time again they are not, it essentially comes down to two school kids both thinking they are right with no backing down for either.

But even Toyota now seems to admit EVs will have a bigger market than hydrogen fuel cell cars, though clearly they project their self charging hybrids will remain the backbone of their buissness.

Toyota Goes Electric Starting In 2020: Announces Massive EV Offensive
 

Delvey

Distinguished Member
Your bias against EVs appear to be reaching a new level
Yes, I am that biased towards EVs that I have reserved the new electric 208. :rotfl:
Seriously, you are like a petulant little child being told his new toy is rubbish.
it essentially comes down to two school kids both thinking they are right with no backing down for either.
Sounds like someone on here:laugh::rotfl::rolleyes:

I am done conversing with you on this subject.
 

gangzoom

Well-known Member
Well my 'new' toy isn't all that new and whilst your still waiting on an EV I've been driving one since 2015.

All the arguments you make against EVs have essentially no backing, and once you actually look at the numbers it pretty obvious which way personal transportation is heading.

If you want to keep pandering to big oil thats all well and good, but I personally hope days of Shell/BP been seen as household names is numbered.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
MOD COMMENT: I think we have heard enough on this from both of you, thanks.
Please feel free to contribute anything new to the thread but do not engage with each other.
 

Delvey

Distinguished Member
Well my 'new' toy isn't all that new and whilst your still waiting on an EV I've been driving one since 2015.

All the arguments you make against EVs have essentially no backing, and once you actually look at the numbers it pretty obvious which way personal transportation is heading.

If you want to keep pandering to big oil thats all well and good, but I personally hope days of Shell/BP been seen as household names is numbered.
I can buy an EV tomorrow. But at the moment the market is moving so fast with EVs I might even wait a year or two (for example, the new 52kW Zoe has just been released, and may be cheaper than the 208-e which has been put on Peugeot.de for actual orders).

My arguments against EV, much like your argument for EV, is based upon personal experience.
 

Delvey

Distinguished Member
But, but Hydrogen has no place in the world
It needs to be batteries, big massive batteries that take up 90% of the carriage:D:rotfl::laugh:
P.S The hydrogen trains being deployed in Germany have the fuel cells on the roof I believe, the train above is just a prototype to prove the concept can be used, hence why they have used a 30 year old train and stored the fuel cell etc in the passenger compartment, before anyone says anything:cool:
 

Desmo

Distinguished Member
Then you also need to include the mining of the raw materials for the batteries.
Wouldn't you then need to include the raw materials for absolutely everything in each car? So engine, gearbox, clutch, etc, etc...
 

Delvey

Distinguished Member
Wouldn't you then need to include the raw materials for absolutely everything in each car? So engine, gearbox, clutch, etc, etc...
Similar post above where I have already mentioned that if you want to be pedantic
 

Rizvan

Well-known Member
“For the customers, it will be difficult to accept such a car in the market - you pay a higher price, you get less of a car, so it will be a tough sell.”
What a load of nonsense.....

BMW M3 vs Tesla Model 3 Performance....... I went with the Model 3 Performance :)
For my usage, the Model 3 worked out the lower in price, I get more in terms of performance and goodies and it wasn't a touch sell at all.
However I do around 18-20k miles a year.
 

Delvey

Distinguished Member
What a load of nonsense.....

BMW M3 vs Tesla Model 3 Performance....... I went with the Model 3 Performance :)
For my usage, the Model 3 worked out the lower in price, I get more in terms of performance and goodies and it wasn't a touch sell at all.
However I do around 18-20k miles a year.
Tesla has the upper hand (hell even the i3 can do 0-60 in around 6 seconds) on performance. Simply because 100% torque is available all the time as long as the tyres can take it.
 

Rizvan

Well-known Member
Tesla has the upper hand (hell even the i3 can do 0-60 in around 6 seconds) on performance. Simply because 100% torque is available all the time as long as the tyres can take it.
I know, I guess bot have their appeals... I loved the grunt and noise the M3 makes... but when I factored in my mileage, the EV was the better option :)
 

Desmo

Distinguished Member
It's a shame he believed VW's 180 miles as the spec page for the e-Golf says this at the bottom...
**The actual range achieved in realistic conditions differs from this result during normal driving operation and amounts to approx. 124 miles on average annually and is dependent on driving style, speed, use of comfort features or auxiliary equipment, ambient temperature, number of passengers/load, choice of driving profile (Normal, ECO, ECO+), and terrain.
A big problem is manufacturers are so used to being able to lie to us about MPG where it doesn't matter too much...they can't seem to change their tune when it comes to the range of an EV where it matters a huge amount.
 

gangzoom

Well-known Member
And that demonstrates why Tesla have got it so right with excellent efficiency at M-way speed, accurate in car routing to Superchargers, and reliable multichargers Supercharger sites.

Add in the ability to rapid DC charge at CHADEMO, and CCS, and AC rapid rates of up to 18KW interms of a painless long-distance EV driving Tesla really have it sorted.

We are going on a 250 mile trip this Saturday, two legs, will be driving at 70mph. According to ABetterRoutePlanner even our relatively inefficient X will only need one 20 min charging stop for a 4hr trip, and in a Model 3 barely 5 minutes.

 

Rizvan

Well-known Member
And that demonstrates why Tesla have got it so right with excellent efficiency at M-way speed, accurate in car routing to Superchargers, and reliable multichargers Supercharger sites.

Add in the ability to rapid DC charge at CHADEMO, and CCS, and AC rapid rates of up to 18KW interms of a painless long-distance EV driving Tesla really have it sorted.

We are going on a 250 mile trip this Saturday, two legs, will be driving at 70mph. According to ABetterRoutePlanner even our relatively inefficient X will only need one 20 min charging stop for a 4hr trip, and in a Model 3 barely 5 minutes.

I have to agree, I had deposits down for both the Polestar 2 and Volkswagen iD3 but looking at everything including the charging infrastructure, the Model 3 won it for me.
It can also make use of the super-dooper fast CCS chargers.... BP Chargemaster have just opened up their first 150kw CCS charger.
Tesla are upgrading to V3 superchargers, this will give 200-250kw abilities..... so maybe a full charge from 0-100% in 25 mins. I think they are saying 75 mile range every 5 mins of charging. :D
 

gangzoom

Well-known Member
I have to agree, I had deposits down for both the Polestar 2 and Volkswagen iD3 but looking at everything including the charging infrastructure, the Model 3 won it for me.
It can also make use of the super-dooper fast CCS chargers.... BP Chargemaster have just opened up their first 150kw CCS charger.
The ability of Tesla cars to use CHADEMO, CCS, and obviously Tesla SCs really is pushing these cars even further ahead interms of real world usability.

Its like having a car that can run of petrol, diesel, or LPG. You literally have access to two/three times more charging options than any other EV.
 

Rizvan

Well-known Member
The ability of Tesla cars to use CHADEMO, CCS, and obviously Tesla SCs really is pushing these cars even further ahead interms of real world usability.

Its like having a car that can run of petrol, diesel, or LPG. You literally have access to two/three times more charging options than any other EV.
I agree, big players Volkswagen AG are investing in charging infrastructure.
I think it's been said many times before, the big players including Tesla need to join forces to reach a wider audience.
I have 1000 free super-charger miles but doubt I will use them much, so for my daily commute of around 98 miles, the battery range is acceptable :)
 

Delvey

Distinguished Member
That is the main issue for non tesla owners. Charging for long journeys are run by a few companies with many restricting time. I drove from Manchester to Cornwall in June and nearly every charging point at service stations limited charging between 45 minutes and 1 and a half hour. No good if you need 80% charge
 

KyleS1

Distinguished Member
Until they can charge in 10 minutes, they just aren’t worth the hassle for a long run. Around town and shorts hops, definitely, but on a long run with young kids in the car, not a chance.
 

Desmo

Distinguished Member
Until you learn how to "live" with the charging on the move and realise it's not a huge issue. Yes, some journeys can take a little extra planning but it's no big ball ache if you've got a reliable charging network available, which I'm aware not everybody does at the moment.

Edit....just to add about the "kids in the car", it's an ideal reason to stop and charge. I used to drive to Wales on a regular basis without stopping. Now I HAVE to stop because I've got a kid in the car. It's the ideal time to top up on the way.
 

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