EV - Are we nearly there yet?

[gangzoom]

I've probably been lucky to benefit for all of this.

It's pretty clear now EV prices aren't following the traditional technology cure of things getting cheaper, instead more the smart phone pricing of getting better but getting more expensive.....remeber when handset came 'free' with contracts vs now £1000 top end phones been well accepted.

I had to pay out about £900 in out of warranty repairs on our Tesla this year, its a bit irrating, but than I realised because of the 'free Supercharging for life' but the end of our summer road trips roughly 5000 miles worth, we would have saved roughly £1,400 compared to a combustion diesel SUV doing 30mpg, and £600 or so even compared to having to pay for DC rapid charging.

So the maintenance costs of our out of warranty Tesla is actually nothing to get fussed about as the longer and more we use the car the cheaper it gets!!

 

[pastrybloke19]

I disagree with your view on Hybrids. They can be an excellent option depending on circumstances. I have a hybrid with a genuine electric only range of 35 miles. This covers my journey to work every day and the majority of other trips I need to make. On the rare occasions I need to travel further, petrol kicks in with the added benefit of no having range anxiety as I can fill up anywhere. Best of both worlds for me and I fill the tank once every 3-4 months

My issue with Hybrids is there very small electric range and then switches to petrol/diesel after that; but then you are lumping around a battery/motor/etc making the petrol/diesel side even worse. I had a PHEV for a while, what a waste of time/marketing gimmic that was!

I get that for some people a Hybrid is a nice, safe step towards EV: but if you can charge at home, then you can start everyday will a full battery= then a good range EV is by far the best option. Plus EV ranges are getting to the level where you should probably/would stop anyway (250-300 miles = toilet break,). Range anxiety is mostly fear; once you have an EV, you quickly adapt and the charging networks are of course getting a lot better.

In the current age of very high fuel prices, efficiency is critical to keep costs down: and on that metric Hybrids cannot compete with EVs.

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

In the current age of very high fuel prices, efficiency is critical to keep costs down: and on that metric Hybrids cannot compete with EVs.

But they can. For some people. For the stereotypical school run car they’re perfect. All the running cost of an EV without the initial premium.

 

[nvingo]

But they can. For some people. For the stereotypical school run car they’re perfect. All the running cost of an EV without the initial premium.

That's assuming plug-in charging.
Hybrids do have the edge for mixed driving provided there's enough juice for the city/congested traffic part of the journey where sitting in traffic light/junction queues with no ICE idling saves fuel (better than a stop-start ICE), then gets on the motorway accelerating under ICE power boosted by the electric motor, and cruise with only a small ICE spinning - saving compared to a larger capacity.
Where they lose is the inefficiency of charging from ICE power rather than plug in, or due to having a small electric range.

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

That's assuming plug-in charging.
Hybrids do have the edge for mixed driving provided there's enough juice for the city/congested traffic part of the journey where sitting in traffic light/junction queues with no ICE idling saves fuel (better than a stop-start ICE), then gets on the motorway accelerating under ICE power boosted by the electric motor, and cruise with only a small ICE spinning - saving compared to a larger capacity.
Where they lose is the inefficiency of charging from ICE power rather than plug in, or due to having a small electric range.

I was assuming, as an EV thread, we're talking about a PHEV. And further in this context one which charges at home, does the school run etc without ever starting the ICE.

 

[AMc]

I drove my PHEV last summer on a 2 week road trip - didn't get to plug in once which tells you a lot about infrastructure at hotels and city centre car parks - starting from 0 miles of electric range most days. It used a combination of electric and petrol under most driving conditions, I had low speed electric driving in most urban areas switching to hybrid over about 40mph. It behaved like any non-plugin hybrid and full performance mode was available at all times too. There's nothing to worry about with available battery - it's all managed by the car.

One advantage of the PHEV which is overlooked is if I start a long journey fully charged and engage hybrid immediately then I get noticeably better combined economy over the whole trip than if I started in full electric and let the car trip into hybrid when the battery is depleted. I assume better than a non plugin hybrid and definitely better than a petrol car.
Depending on the route I can do urban>high speed>urban with enough full electric at the far end to get to the destination from the motorway.

I've never understood the point of charging from petrol and have never used it.

 

[Wardy257]

My issue with Hybrids is there very small electric range and then switches to petrol/diesel after that; but then you are lumping around a battery/motor/etc making the petrol/diesel side even worse. I had a PHEV for a while, what a waste of time/marketing gimmic that was!

I get that for some people a Hybrid is a nice, safe step towards EV: but if you can charge at home, then you can start everyday will a full battery= then a good range EV is by far the best option. Plus EV ranges are getting to the level where you should probably/would stop anyway (250-300 miles = toilet break,). Range anxiety is mostly fear; once you have an EV, you quickly adapt and the charging networks are of course getting a lot better.

In the current age of very high fuel prices, efficiency is critical to keep costs down: and on that metric Hybrids cannot compete with EVs.

Agree, plus with Hybrids you still get all the bills that go with an ICE, oil and filter changes, cambelts, spark plus, exhausts etc.

 

[nvingo]

Agree, plus with Hybrids you still get all the bills that go with an ICE, oil and filter changes, cambelts, spark plus, exhausts etc.

You don't get all the bills.
Because of how the computer manages the transmission, power delivery, the ICE is never stressed, nor the 'clutch', wear components like cambelts last much longer.

 

[Wardy257]

'Never Stressed' seems a bit far fetched, people will still drive like idiots and engines and components will still wear.

You don't get all the bills.
Because of how the computer manages the transmission, power delivery, the ICE is never stressed, nor the 'clutch', wear components like cambelts last much longer.

 

[gangzoom]

I drove my PHEV last summer on a 2 week road trip - didn't get to plug in once which tells you a lot about infrastructure at hotels and city centre car parks - starting from 0 miles of electric range most days.

I thought today I better 'check' the charging options for our EV for the up and coming road trip to Norway. Put in our starting destination in Europe into the car (Hook of Holland), end of leg 1 is to Copenhagen. The car tells me 4 charging stops are needed, Google tells me its pretty much an 11hr drive with covering some 620 miles.

We are actually doing this leg over 2 days as 1 day would be impossible with our 6 year in the car.....The limit of how much distance we can cover in 1 day for our summer holiday road trip isn't our EV, its the people in the car. Am sure there are people who claim they can drive from 11hrs+ none stop, and that any break longer than 30 seconds is unacceptable, for most normal families, EV work perfectly fine on holiday even when you are crossing the continent!!

 

[leedebs]

I drove my PHEV last summer on a 2 week road trip - didn't get to plug in once which tells you a lot about infrastructure at hotels and city centre car parks - starting from 0 miles of electric range most days. It used a combination of electric and petrol under most driving conditions, I had low speed electric driving in most urban areas switching to hybrid over about 40mph. It behaved like any non-plugin hybrid and full performance mode was available at all times too. There's nothing to worry about with available battery - it's all managed by the car.

One advantage of the PHEV which is overlooked is if I start a long journey fully charged and engage hybrid immediately then I get noticeably better combined economy over the whole trip than if I started in full electric and let the car trip into hybrid when the battery is depleted. I assume better than a non plugin hybrid and definitely better than a petrol car.
Depending on the route I can do urban>high speed>urban with enough full electric at the far end to get to the destination from the motorway.

I've never understood the point of charging from petrol and have never used it.

I have found electric at start & end of journey results in better mpg & for urban areas makes sense. I flick into hybrid mode on motorway or fast a roads. The phev works great for us as we mostly charge at home & use electric for most of our journeys but have the petrol/electric combination for the longer trips we do. Ymmv

 

[nvingo]

people will still drive like idiots

The point is, the computer buffers the idiots from directly controlling the engine, what the idiots are controlling is the speed, and the computer decided where to draw the power from to provide that.
There's a reason Toyota's hybrid model is one of the most reliable used cars.

 

[AMc]

I have found electric at start & end of journey results in better mpg & for urban areas makes sense.

I guess it depends where you live - I'm out of the 30mph in our village in less than 1/2 mile then on National Speed Limit/50mph roads on most of our long journeys. If I had a longer urban drag to begin with it might work out differently.
I have on occasion left our house near Norwich and not had to come to a stop until I turned off the North Circular once I'm out of the village the lowest speed limit on that stretch is 50mph.

The GTE in hybrid from start will run fully electric up to about 40mph then start the engine and use them both as best suits.

I appreciate that I have a full petrol engine and power train to maintain but at £240 for the last service vs. many, many thousands more for an EV with the range I need a few times a year it make sense for me at the moment.
My only issue is I've always tended to be light on the brakes, with regen and an eye on economy most of the time I have to remind myself to really use them once in a while to clean the rust off the rear discs

 

[noiseboy72]

I guess it depends where you live - I'm out of the 30mph in our village in less than 1/2 mile then on National Speed Limit/50mph roads on most of our long journeys. If I had a longer urban drag to begin with it might work out differently.
I have on occasion left our house near Norwich and not had to come to a stop until I turned off the North Circular once I'm out of the village the lowest speed limit on that stretch is 50mph.

The GTE in hybrid from start will run fully electric up to about 40mph then start the engine and use them both as best suits.

I appreciate that I have a full petrol engine and power train to maintain but at £240 for the last service vs. many, many thousands more for an EV with the range I need a few times a year it make sense for me at the moment.
My only issue is I've always tended to be light on the brakes, with regen and an eye on economy most of the time I have to remind myself to really use them once in a while to clean the rust off the rear discs

We're in a similar position. We live 1/2 a mile from the A1, so the majority of our journeys tend to be at high speed on fast roads. Shopping is less than 1/2 a mile the other way, so we wouldn't really benefit from a hybrid.

EV might start to make sense if we get charging points at work, and as a 2nd vehicle for my wife, so I think we will start looking at options later this year.

 

[leedebs]

I guess it depends where you live - I'm out of the 30mph in our village in less than 1/2 mile then on National Speed Limit/50mph roads on most of our long journeys. If I had a longer urban drag to begin with it might work out differently.
I have on occasion left our house near Norwich and not had to come to a stop until I turned off the North Circular once I'm out of the village the lowest speed limit on that stretch is 50mph.

The GTE in hybrid from start will run fully electric up to about 40mph then start the engine and use them both as best suits.

I appreciate that I have a full petrol engine and power train to maintain but at £240 for the last service vs. many, many thousands more for an EV with the range I need a few times a year it make sense for me at the moment.
My only issue is I've always tended to be light on the brakes, with regen and an eye on economy most of the time I have to remind myself to really use them once in a while to clean the rust off the rear discs

Majority of my journeys I can use electric range (40 miles in summer) for the odd longer journeys it makes sense to use electric when able (slow speeds or traffic etc) & hybrid (petrol/electric) for faster main roads etc. Not sure I get why people don't like the plug in hybrid as for me it works brilliantly & of course you can buy them second hand & not as costly as a full ev. Cost for a full ev with the range & capability needed, I cannot afford. I imagine it would be the same for a lot of people

 

[Wardy257]

The point is, the computer buffers the idiots from directly controlling the engine, what the idiots are controlling is the speed, and the computer decided where to draw the power from to provide that.
There's a reason Toyota's hybrid model is one of the most reliable used cars.

Nothing to do with Toyotas being mainly being driven by pensioners then?

 

[AMc]

From around here and every city I've visited in the last decade or so Prius are mostly driven by taxi drivers, hardly a quiet life!

 

[IronGiant]

Year 2 service for our MG today. New brake fluid and an air con service needed . And to rub salt in the wound, there's irreparable damage to one of the rear tyres causing a slow puncture.

 

[noiseboy72]

Year 2 service for our MG today. New brake fluid and an air con service needed . And to rub salt in the wound, there's irreparable damage to one of the rear tyres causing a slow puncture.

I would challenge both of the "service" items and get a 2nd opinion on the tyre. Brake fluid should be changed every 3 years or 45k miles, so there's no need to change it yet.

Aircon service? Does the aircon work as it should? If so, other than cleaning out the filter and doing a 10 second pressure check, there's very little else to do.

With the tyre, find a good indie and ask them to check. Most slow punctures are caused by leaking valves, electrolytic corrosion where the alloy and metal valve stem meet (on cars with tyre pressure sensors), penetration damage or muck under the rim. It's only penetration damage near the edge of the tyre that cannot be repaired.

 

[IronGiant]

Aircon service? Does the aircon work as it should? If so, other than cleaning out the filter and doing a 10 second pressure check, there's very little else to do.

I'm no expert but don't some EV's use the aircon to keep the batteries cool? Which requires a "special" sort of air con fluid, which might need changing regularly? The car is with an MG dealer so presumably they are following a prescribed service schedule?

 

[noiseboy72]

I'm no expert but don't some EV's use the aircon to keep the batteries cool? Which requires a "special" sort of air con fluid, which might need changing regularly? The car is with an MG dealer so presumably they are following a prescribed service schedule?

There can certainly be battery cooling, is that what's being talked about?

There's a genuine concern in the motor industry that EVs need much less in the way of servicing, so it's quite likely that service items will be "invented" to keep the work coming in.

Brakes are a good example, as EVs use their brakes less due to regen braking, so they will last a lot longer, maybe 5+ years.

 

[IronGiant]

Not sure on the details, it's Mrs IG's vehicle so I'm getting the information second hand. At least they aren't trying to charge us for an oil change
I do know the slow puncture started after the inner side wall was heavily pinched/clipped on a kerbstone while navigating past some road works so there may well be structural damage to it.

 

[gangzoom]

I'm no expert but don't some EV's use the aircon to keep the batteries cool? Which requires a "special" sort of air con fluid, which might need changing regularly? The car is with an MG dealer so presumably they are following a prescribed service schedule?

I'm not sure why you should need an air con service every 2 years? I had the air con recharged at 4 years in our Tesla more for the sake of it than need.

 

[pevz]

I got a Model 3 Long Range on lease almost 2 years ago and have been commuting from Essex to Central London every day... its about a 70 miles round trip.

It is an expensive car and by the far most expensive we have ever had, and I often get asked how can I afford the £700pm. But the rail season ticket for me is pushing £500pm now! We were already paying £200pm for a Ford, then when you start to take into account petrol and tax etc we are actually better off... and we have a wicked Tesla!

The home charger is the gamechanger though, I never worry about range or driving economically. Its just fully loaded each morning and ready to go. On-street parking in Westminster is 86p for 4 hours, so I'm paying £2.58 per day for parking which is crazy and obviously it is exempt from congestion charge.

The big downside is traffic, but it probably only adds 15 minutes to my journey... obviously some days it can be total carnage, but then so can the trains. Plus I don't have to sit next to anybody or stand in an unairconditioned sweatbox for an hour.

The congestion charge waiver for EV's comes to an end in December 2025, at which point I guess I will go back to the train and look back on this time fondly, but at least Elizabeth Line is up and running now which will make a big difference for me when the time comes.... but for now, my model Y is on order and should be arriving in September

 

[psikey]

My issue with Hybrids is there very small electric range and then switches to petrol/diesel after that; but then you are lumping around a battery/motor/etc making the petrol/diesel side even worse. I had a PHEV for a while, what a waste of time/marketing gimmic that was!

I get that for some people a Hybrid is a nice, safe step towards EV: but if you can charge at home, then you can start everyday will a full battery= then a good range EV is by far the best option. Plus EV ranges are getting to the level where you should probably/would stop anyway (250-300 miles = toilet break,). Range anxiety is mostly fear; once you have an EV, you quickly adapt and the charging networks are of course getting a lot better.

In the current age of very high fuel prices, efficiency is critical to keep costs down: and on that metric Hybrids cannot compete with EVs.

I've had a Hybrid Golf GTE Advance into my 5th year now. 95% of all my travel is within its fully electric 22 mile range, plus I get to charge for free at work and think I put at most £100/year in petrol (before price increases). Just done 36,000 miles and the approx. mpg showing at 280mpg.

• I'm not carrying weight of 54/77kWh+ of batteries (just 8kWH and larger batteries will weigh more than the ICE parts)*
• No range anxiety, ever.
• I've done 1 600 mile trip with 4 occupants and luggage with only the initial charge (over 3 days) and it still averaged as good as a diesel at 60mpg.
• It also only cost £1K more than the equivalent Diesel GTD at the time.
• Still does 0-60 in 6.5s, beats a GTI 0-30 and can go over 140mph (not needed).
• Just had it valued and still commanding £21K against an ID. Buzz I have deposit on.

Note*:
Golf GTD: 1,466Kg
Golf GTE 1,624Kg

Golf E 1,615Kg (only 35.8kWh battery)
ID.3 1,772–1,935 kg (Depending on Battery size)


At the time a full electric with decent range was £10K more than the GTE (Tesla M3, £39,500).

PS. I'm considering ID. Buzz as looking to do long weekend Campervan type trips so will be doing longer ranges.