European war demons may return

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by la gran siete, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    25,270
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    West Sussex
    Ratings:
    +1,983
  2. Wild Weasel

    Wild Weasel
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,641
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    The Medieval Warm Period
    Ratings:
    +720
    They'll have to hand back their Nobel Peace Prize.
     
  3. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    45,499
    Products Owned:
    11
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +24,161
    Jean Claude Juncker: Europe's demons are only sleeping - Telegraph

    Tim Rahmann, a commentator for the weekly business magazine WirtschaftsWoche, said: “Nonsensical comparisons, exaggerations and slogans do not help to reform the European Union. On the contrary they only lead to the EU and its leaders losing credibility.”
     
  4. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    25,270
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    West Sussex
    Ratings:
    +1,983
    an avowedly anti EU paper spouts its usual junk . Quelle susprise ,not
     
  5. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    45,499
    Products Owned:
    11
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +24,161
    A former president of European Council spouts usual pro European junk. Quelle surprise, not.
     
  6. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    25,270
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    West Sussex
    Ratings:
    +1,983
    history teaches he is most likely correct though, as he implied
     
  7. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,997
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,238
    Oh no what are we going to do without the thousands of bureaucrats busy shuffling paper, having meeting, expensive lunches, five star hotels and an all expenses paid trips around the world.

    I know. Get on with trading, innovating, having cheap holidays on sunny beaches and struggling to work out the currencies. Vive La Difference. Long live our diverse cultures, customs, laws, economies, language and currency.

    Send the bureaucrats back and get them engaged in proper work shuffling papers in offices for producers and not determining everything for producers.

    As for war. Nah. The only war is against the idiotic fools that try and force homogeneity on everyone else. We are all climbing out of their neat in trays and filing cabinets like the mops and buckets in the sorcerers apprentice. Their ideologies have failed and plunged Europe into debt and depression. When its all over they should face a trial for their incompetence and destruction.
     
  8. EarthRod

    EarthRod
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    17,673
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +7,770
    :D Nice post!

    Easy there tiger! You don't like the Brussels bureaucrats?

    I'm all for maintaining diverse cultures - as long as we all dress the same, speak the same language, eat the same food and use the same money.

    Can I have a job in Brussels please? £140,000 pa, nice 4-bed apartment in the city, 35 hour week, free 1st class travel, 6 weeks holiday pa, private health insurance.

    That'll do me. :devil:

    Seriously, I think their days are numbered - change will have to take place. Probably slowly, but its on the cards.
     
  9. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    45,499
    Products Owned:
    11
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +24,161
    Except these days we have the UN, Nato, democracies, nuclear weapons, knowledge, foreign aid, and so many other factors that are different from the past that we can dismiss all the incorrect scaremongering from a committed europhile.

    You might note the last conflict in Europe was in the Balkans were people wanted independence and they were being held in a forced union. (It was also Nato that finally sorted it out...)

    Also since when was WirtschaftsWoche an avowedly anti EU paper?

    Here it is dodgly translated by Google Chrome:

    http://www.wiwo.de/politik/europa/euro-krise-junckers-gefaehrliche-zuspitzung/7909404.html

    Junckers dangerous escalation

    With all due respect, the comparison is absurd and dangerous. In the early 20th Century the German Empire, France, Great Britain, but also Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire bursting with narcissism, self-importance and great power fantasies. In the race for colonies and territories were fleets and armies built and upgraded, the people cheered, as for example in Germany Kaiser Wilhelm II declared a state of war.

    Like Greece or Italy sometimes protest signs with Nazi symbols are pivoted so no one can seriously talk about a threat of war in Europe. Populists and aggressors are marginal - even in deeply stuck in the Greece crisis. There, the extreme right-wing "party of the Dawn", despite all sorts of efforts won (poor feeding in front of the Parliament), and intimidation of dissidents, only seven percent of the vote in parliamentary elections last year. Italy was the comedian and anti-party politician Beppe Grillo a quarter of the votes.

    The talk of a "threat of war in Europe" is as wrong as forecasts, the European Union would die . Whether you like it or not the critics: The international community is irreversible. Of course, the EU institutions need reform, or even a reorganization. The excessive apparatus in Brussels must be removed, the principle of subsidiarity (which can be decided locally, should be decided locally) to be taken seriously. Europe must - in the sense David Cameron - to reinvent and put the focus on growth, competitiveness and deregulation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  10. sidicks

    sidicks
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    12,715
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,302
    You should know LGS by now - if he can't find something to support his opinions he simply makes it up!
     
  11. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,997
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,238
    If you think about it, Brussels was the natural corollary to the events of the Second World War. It was a time when bureaucrats became important, they were empowered to ensure that the states maintained output and quality. There were ministries for every part of production for the war effort and for the peace effort that followed. It was inevitable they would see themselves as being extremely important and valuable and refused to give up that empowerment. The EU is all about homogenising everything and that's what bureaucrats do. They are great at ensuring that tasks are carried our with repeatability. They are great controllers and moderators but they are not innovative except to constantly improve the efficiency of the designated task. Anything outside of the central task just disturbs them.

    That's why they make the wrong decisions on things like the common currency. For them its obvious. Homogenous currency makes things more efficient and it must be used to bash out all differences in countries to increase simplification and task efficiency. It doesn't matter what it costs. Money isn't important, production isn't important, the task is king and all consuming and total focus must be maintained. Everything must be steam rolled flat and anyone getting in the way must be removed as they are corrupting the plan.

    Its really the civil servants, the paper pushers, the detail people being put in charge because of the fear that we might end up with another nutter like Hitler, Franco or Mussolini. It feels safe and people like to feel safe. I understand all of that. However, when the unthinkable actually happens, as it has with the global banking crisis then they are lost. Too many bumps and lumps in their nice flat plan and they can't cope. The answer will always be "we must have more resource, more staplers, filing cabinets, computers, people, buildings to keep this under control". They cannot conceive why anyone would think money was more important than the plan. Anyone attempting to reduce the budget is seen as a mad fool. How will they carry out their plan without more money ?
     
  12. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    45,499
    Products Owned:
    11
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +24,161
    And pre WWII there was a lot of spending on defence. These days it's hard to find a nation not cutting defence spending. The US would love Europe to do more. Who is going to invade who and with what?
     
  13. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,997
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,238
    "When it becomes serious, you have to lie," Juncker, who as the chairman of the regular meetings of eurozone finance ministers is one of the currency union's key spokesmen, said in recent remarks.
    Read more at http://globaleconomicanalysis******...er-luxembourg-pm-and.html#GvGXE12WoPvPIppY.99
     
  14. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    45,499
    Products Owned:
    11
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +24,161
  15. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    25,270
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    West Sussex
    Ratings:
    +1,983
    History doesnt remain static of course things change as they always have done but there are certain truths which have a habit of repeating themselves if certain conditions are not met chief among them the economy.Germ,any was democracy between both wars but because of draconian peace terms was plunged onto an appalling economic condition which gave rise to extremist forces.The same could well happen today if the current austerity measures are persisted with or made worse.Hardship = social instability which in turns creates grievances and as I stated the rise of the far right who would scapegoat certain social groups or the far who left who blame the rich for their predicament.From that we get terrorist activities the like we have sen so often in South America a region plagued with vast discrepancies in wealth.Nato would be powerless to deal with that and in any case you cant solve problems just with the use of force ,in fact you make things worse.You have to have a carrot in the shape of hope and a feeling that people can make a positive difference. Suppression does not work in democracies.This where the EU has been spectacularly successful in first creating a trade zone without the kind of tariffs which once plagued the continent and where good and labour could travel freely , and then by issuing grants which have helped new member nations such as Spain and Portugal to develop their infrastructure and as result attract inward investment.These are the measures which have helped maintain the ;peace over 60 years .Junker is right in issuing that statement because if the EU fails we shall all be in trouble of that i have no doubt
     
  16. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,997
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,238
    Still saying right and left. There is no difference, we have the rise of smaller parties. The reason it is happening is because of the EU. It isn't exactly that its failed, it just wasn't a good idea to put ambitious bureaucrats in charge of a continent.

    There is a case for a change in Governments. We can't be having dictators come to power either because of vacuum. I would like to say I have a comprehensive answer to that problem. Democracy hasn't proved worthwhile because it just panders to the lowest common denominator or those who control the media. What is missing is a legacy style governance that puts country first without protectionism.
     
  17. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    65,875
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +45,871
    Just a thought: technically, are the Falkland Islands part of the EU or not?
     
  18. Lurking Lawyer

    Lurking Lawyer
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    Messages:
    8,366
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Ratings:
    +3,961
    No, they are a British Overseas Territory, which means that they fall under the jurisdiction of the UK but are not part of it.

    As such, they're not part of the EU.
     
  19. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    25,270
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    West Sussex
    Ratings:
    +1,983
    are Tristan da cunha Bermuda and St Helena?
     
  20. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    45,499
    Products Owned:
    11
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +24,161
  21. Lurking Lawyer

    Lurking Lawyer
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    Messages:
    8,366
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Ratings:
    +3,961
    Oddly, even though it is not formally part of the EU, its inhabitants are EU citizens by virtue of being British citizens.

    The EU does provide funding for some overseas territories of member states (France has a few too) even though they are not part of the EU.
     
  22. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    65,875
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +45,871
    I have no idea, I asked the question because I didn't know the answer...

    Thanks Lurking Lawyer and Sonic :thumbsup:
     
  23. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    65,875
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +45,871
    from Sonic's link:

    and to answer your question LGS, it would appear that they are of the same status as the Falklands :smashin:
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  24. sidicks

    sidicks
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    12,715
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,302
    No, "history" does not change. But new history is created to add to the old history!
    :suicide:
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  25. Lurking Lawyer

    Lurking Lawyer
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    Messages:
    8,366
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Ratings:
    +3,961
    They're also British Overseas Territories, like the Falklands. The same principles apply so, no, they're not part of the EU.

    IIIRC the only BOT that does form part of the EU is Gibraltar.
     
  26. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    25,270
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    West Sussex
    Ratings:
    +1,983
    I know tristan da cunha dont have automatic access to EU markets and I guess Bermuda does tIs trade with the US

    Wiki - Even though Tristan da Cunha is a UK overseas territory, it is not permitted direct access to European Union markets
     
  27. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    45,499
    Products Owned:
    11
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +24,161
    And we can send foreign aid to countries whether they or us are in the EU. Nations do it all the time. Some EU nations have been screwed thanks to the EU. Greece would be better off outside the EU. If they didn't have the Euro and had their own currency tourists would visit it as their money might go further. It is what happened in the past. Outside the EU you can make economic decisions that are best for your own country.
    Germany was made to pay for World War 1 by the victors. We aren't going to be doing that so irrelevant.
    You say “Austerity measures” others say having to live within your means. Many nations promised the electorate the world and funded it on the never never. Sooner or later you have to pay up again. Are you saying nations should run up debts and never pay? Or be like your new hero who says openly that it is necessary for national leaders to tell lies about the state of global financial markets to keep them viable?
    Except the people actually blame their own previous governments for running up the debt in the first place.
    South America is plagued by basket case economies.
    Except Nato is perfectly placed to deal with a war and the threat of war is what the thread is about.
    Some problems you can. Si vis pacem, para bellum. As I said above artificiallytrying to unite people lead to war in the Balkans. Just what the EU tries to do...
    Many people now see that things would be better for them outside the EU. Quite a few people in different nations are seriously thinking the EU is a bad idea. Germany has recently seen the emergence of a new political party (AfD - Alternative fur Deutschland) which is roughly equivalent to UKIP. Recent polls in Germany show that around 49% of people are anti-EU, and even more want to scrap the despised Euro. You shouldn't try to suppress this as....
    Exactly. And the EU isn't one.
    Which a lot of people had no problem with. Directly messing in people's countries is where they went wrong. No one wanted a large dictatorial superstate.
    And we can send foreign aid to countries whether they or us are in the EU. Nations do it all the time.
    Along with the UN, Nato, democracies, nuclear weapons, knowledge, foreign aid, and so many other factors that are different from the past so that we can dismiss all the incorrect scaremongering from a committed europhile.
    One Europhile believes in the words of another Europhile and self confessed liar. Who knew?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  28. sidicks

    sidicks
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    12,715
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,302
    So much for free trade.....
     
  29. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,997
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,238
    LMAO. It does change if LGS is quoting it. Just yesterday I discovered we had actually lost the Second World War and the steam engine was invented by an Aboriginal. Most of it was Thatchers fault, well all the bad stuff like the Great Fire of Edinburgh and the Blue Plague. She even directed that arrow into Harold's eye. That's Harold Wilson of course who fought Just William and Harry Potter.
     
  30. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,150
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
    Does anyone see a similarity of German reparations after WW1 with Greece now?
     

Share This Page

Loading...