European Elections - 23 May 19 - Who will you vote for?

Who will you vote in the upcoming European Elections? (if held in UK)

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 4 2.7%
  • Labour

    Votes: 5 3.4%
  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 27 18.2%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 10 6.8%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • SNP

    Votes: 6 4.1%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 4.1%
  • Far Rights (BNP / EDP)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 75 50.7%
  • Will abstain/spoil the paper out of protest

    Votes: 5 3.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 6.8%

  • Total voters
    148
  • Poll closed .

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
In 2016 4 million voted for UKIP. 17 million voted to leave the EU. Are you saying not one person should represent that?
What, you are saying it should continue?

Do you want Brexit resolving or for it to keep dragging on for years?

Do you want leavers to actually have some responsibility for leaving? Who will you blame if it goes wrong? What if they actually do a good job? At least they will be passionate over it.
Yes I do want Brexit resolving because it’s keeping the country in limbo, that’s not the point.

You now seem to be happy that an EU Parliament Party and it’s members, with no direct elected representation within the UK, are brought into the UK Parliament negotiations.
 

Squiffy

Distinguished Member
@Sonic67

Just thinking about TBP and their suggestion of having a seat at the negotiating table. I thought they had campaigned on a “clean break” ‘no deal’ Brexit to get us out of the EU and onto WTO terms. If that’s the case, what exactly are the going to negotiate with the EU over?
No deal only means no withdrawal deal.

It has never meant no cooperation, except in the minds of remainers.

The EU have offered lots of reciprocal arrangements in the event of no deal including flights, truckers, citizens rights, etc.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
"We" voted for a hung parliament. That was the result. The same DUP Gordon Brown was happy to form a coalition with. And Corbyn would have if it wasn't for his IRA past.
Oh but Corbyn!

Again ignoring the point. “We” voted for a Conservative Government but they didn’t get enough votes in our electoral system. Instead of putting it back to another vote, they negotiated with a fringe party and brought them into the Government, giving the overall say on any decisions. You didn’t vote for the DUP, the Conservatives employed “horse trading” to stay in power.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
No deal only means no withdrawal deal.

It has never meant no cooperation, except in the minds of remainers.

The EU have offered lots of reciprocal arrangements in the event of no deal including flights, truckers, citizens rights, etc.
You’re right, but the immediate focus is the WA or leaving with a “clean break” and just walking away without paying the “divorce” settlement etc. I’m just saying that TBP campaigned on the “clean break” promise but are now asking to be involved in negotiations on the WA. Which is it?
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
I asked as you linked previously to an article about the EU Elections where all parties are negotiating who they plan to align and form coalitions with.

Which is why I asked, the new TBP MEPs what are they currently doing?

Maybe it’s early days as was a Bank Holiday and probably in transit maybe?
I wondered if Farage talked about the plan post election?
I must admit this one hell of an idea. Blair always wanted to be EU President so it isn't impossible for Farage to be it. We get to stay in the EU and Farage could actually reform it from within.

He has a mandate, he is head of the largest UK party. And the UK party is a large EU player. I did hear his party is also the largest EU party though I'm not sure on that. Large anyway.

"Farage for EU President."

"Viva El Presidente"
 

Squiffy

Distinguished Member
You’re right, but the immediate focus is the WA or leaving with a “clean break” and just walking away without paying the “divorce” settlement etc. I’m just saying that TBP campaigned on the “clean break” promise but are now asking to be involved in negotiations on the WA. Which is it?
Both.

Even with a clean break there are things to negotiate. And we will want to negotiate a long term arrangement.
 

domtheone

Distinguished Member
No deal only means no withdrawal deal.

It has never meant no cooperation, except in the minds of remainers.

The EU have offered lots of reciprocal arrangements in the event of no deal including flights, truckers, citizens rights, etc.
Indeed. Remainers getting in a frenzy again.

Even the Brexit Party want a deal (Free Trade), though, are willing to walk away without this.

Lots of stuff (flights etc) has already been agreed, come what May.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Again ignoring the point. “We” voted for a Conservative Government but they didn’t get enough votes in our electoral system. Instead of putting it back to another vote, they negotiated with a fringe party and brought them into the Government, giving the overall say on any decisions. You didn’t vote for the DUP, the Conservatives employed “horse trading” to stay in power.
Again ignoring the point.

"We" didn't vote for a Conservative Government. I'm pretty sure you didn't so where is the "We?"

"We" voted for a hung parliament. We all voted. That's what we got.

Under the rules, agreed by everyone, before the vote started, you can have a coalition government and be in power.

The DUP were elected just the same as any other party.

No different to a Labour/SNP government if it happens. And with the SNP advocating the break up of the UK you can call them "fringe" or "extremist" or whatever.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
So what is it Widdecombe wants to negotiate if her party’s only tag line/policy/plan was to leave with no agreed deal and go straight onto WTO terms?
TBP want to leave with a deal.

May's deal is a disaster so if there is no other option then leaving with no deal is better than that.

They do want a deal, just not a bad one.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
Again ignoring the point.

"We" didn't vote for a Conservative Government. I'm pretty sure you didn't so where is the "We?"

"We" voted for a hung parliament. We all voted. That's what we got.

Under the rules, agreed by everyone, before the vote started, you can have a coalition government and be in power.

The DUP were elected just the same as any other party.

No different to a Labour/SNP government if it happens. And with the SNP advocating the break up of the UK you can call them "fringe" or "extremist" or whatever.
You said “we” meaning the electorate I assume? I used the same inverted commas terminology.

And again, it’s an example whereby “we” didn’t choose what deals the Conservative Party did to retain power. It’s showing that “horse trading” takes place everywhere but you only have an issue when the EU parties do it.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
TBP want to leave with a deal.

May's deal is a disaster so if there is no other option then leaving with no deal is better than that.

They do want a deal, just not a bad one.
Ok. So the question still has to be, how they expect to get a better deal when they've openly stated they would withhold the settlement payment, have no interest in being members of the EU and have already said they will also aim to leave on WTO terms? Yes, it's a strong negotiating stance but it must be fair to say that their expectation is to leave with no deal so it feels more like simply hedging their bets so they can claim a victory whatever the outcome.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Yes I do want Brexit resolving because it’s keeping the country in limbo, that’s not the point.

You now seem to be happy that an EU Parliament Party and it’s members, with no direct elected representation within the UK, are brought into the UK Parliament negotiations.
There was an idea for a non elected body to resolve Brexit. All sides are represented and they are non political.

If some are happy with a non elected body doing it, why not have them have some representation?

I emphasise some. No one is saying all or only.

You don't like leavers, I don't like remainers. But if all sides are represented and it get's a deal, why do you have a problem with it?

Regardless, the ERG will be involved. Are you happy with that?
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
There was an idea for a non elected body to resolve Brexit. All sides are represented and they are non political.

If some are happy with a non elected body doing it, why not have them have some representation?

I emphasise some. No one is saying all or only.

You don't like leavers, I don't like remainers. But if all sides are represented and it get's a deal, why do you have a problem with it?

Regardless, the ERG will be involved. Are you happy with that?
I haven’t stated my position on a non-elected body and hadn’t seen anything proposing that?

The idea of cross party talks was to make the negotiations a Parliamentary stance which should, in theory, allow all sides to have a say. The half-hearted talks that May reluctantly called a few weeks ago appeared more of a last-gasp marketing exercise.

With regards to the ERG, they’re a group of elected Conservative members so they would be part and parcel of the Conservative side of the discussions.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
You said “we” meaning the electorate I assume? I used the same inverted commas terminology.
Yes. We the electorate voted. The hung parliament was the result. I didn't vote LibDem in 2010. We still go them in power.
And again, it’s an example whereby “we” didn’t choose what deals the Conservative Party did to retain power. It’s showing that “horse trading” takes place everywhere but you only have an issue when the EU parties do it.
You can be part of a political party and you can then have a say in which direction that party goes. You can join the Conservative party, you are funding it, you get to vote in a leadership election if there is more than one candidate left.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
What a weird thing to say. I don't like Brexit, I don't understand Brexiteers, but I don't dislike them, I don't know them.
It's an expression. Given how they haven't respected democracy since the vote there's a good reason. Some do accept it, if you still don't, don't be surprised if you aren't on my Christmas card list.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
Yes. We the electorate voted. The hung parliament was the result. I didn't vote LibDem in 2010. We still go them in power.
You can be part of a political party and you can then have a say in which direction that party goes. You can join the Conservative party, you are funding it, you get to vote in a leadership election if there is more than one candidate left.
Literally the point...

You didn’t vote for the Libdems yet the Conservative Party used “horse trading” to form a coalition. You didn’t vote for the DUP, yet the Conservative Party used “horse trading” to form a coalition.

I’m not saying it’s right/wrong/unique, I’m saying it happens across politics so being unhappy about the EU parties doing it, without having an equal issue with UK parties doing it is a little bias.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Ok. So the question still has to be, how they expect to get a better deal when they've openly stated they would withhold the settlement payment, have no interest in being members of the EU and have already said they will also aim to leave on WTO terms?
They have openly stated they want to leave with a deal. No deal is only the preferred option if the deal is May's deal.

Second time I've posted this in minutes. Do you need a link?
Yes, it's a strong negotiating stance but it must be fair to say that their expectation is to leave with no deal so it feels more like simply hedging their bets so they can claim a victory whatever the outcome.
We voted to leave. We still, haven't.

The vote was to leave, not with a deal, without a deal or anything else.

Leaving without a deal is still leaving. It honours the result.

They would prefer to leave with a deal.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Literally the point...

You didn’t vote for the Libdems yet the Conservative Party used “horse trading” to form a coalition. You didn’t vote for the DUP, yet the Conservative Party used “horse trading” to form a coalition.

I’m not saying it’s right/wrong/unique, I’m saying it happens across politics so being unhappy about the EU parties doing it, without having an equal issue with UK parties doing it is a little bias.
Still don't get it...

Who elected Juncker to be EU leader?

Name me one member of the ordinary electorate. Anyone.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
Still don't get it...

Who elected Juncker to be EU leader?

Name me one member of the ordinary electorate. Anyone.
The European Council did, which is comprised of the Heads of State of the members. We elected our head of state at the time, David Cameron.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
The European Council did, which is comprised of the Heads of State of the members. We elected our head of state at the time, David Cameron.
And how did that do?

https://www.politico.eu/article/cameron-bets-all-on-blocking-juncker/

The prime minister of the United Kingdom has staked his political reputation at home and his country's relationship with the European Union on blocking Juncker's appointment.

Oh.

The EU is a bit bigger than the UK. The EU is a superstate like the US. The US has an elected President.

We can elect MEPs who can't even enact legislation.

There's no reason why there can't be a place on the EU voting slip for Presidential candidates and why they should be elected.

Why should the EU President be down to horse trading? That seems closer to Stalinist Russia.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
There's no reason why there can't be a place on the EU voting slip for Presidential candidates and why they should be elected.

Why should the EU President be down to horse trading? That seems closer to Stalinist Russia.
:rotfl: Needless to say, the UK also has an unelected head of state.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
This is why I despair sometimes. You get people saying the EU isn't perfect, we should reform it, and then constantly defend the EU.

You know Weavie, just once in a while you could think, “fair one, it could be better.” Instead of constantly defending it over everything.

The EU is far bigger now than ever before, we voted to leave as it wouldn't reform, a major issue with leavers is how the EU is democratically deficient and growing in power. Now with its own army. How about thinking sometimes, perhaps if the EU reformed, was more accountable to the people that would be a good thing? Instead of the Conservative/DUP whataboutery?
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
I hope you realised that the Eu election turnout was the second highest ever for the Uk ;)
Yes.
Although regionally the turnout figures differed, some up, some down.
  • The turnout for the South East of England is 39.36% which is up from 36.3% in 2014,
  • while in the West Midlands it dropped from 32.4% in 2014 to 31.1% this year.
  • In the North West turnout was down from 33.3% in 2014 to 33.1% in this year’s elections.
  • In the South West, a turnout of 40.5% was recorded, which is a three percentage point increase on 37.4% from 2014,
  • while the North East has 32.7%, slightly up on the 31.6% of 2014.
  • The Eastern region had a turnout of 36.4%, much the same as the 36.6% of 2014.
  • The turnout in Wales is five percentage points up on 2014 – 37.3% as against 32% in the previous Euro poll.
European Elections turnout highest in 20 years | Metro News

I hope you realise the biggest voter turnout (excluding Northern Ireland) was in Scotland "Turnout across Scotland was recorded at 39.9%, up from 33.5% five years ago". And that coincided with the highest percentage of votes for remain parties, over 60% ;)

And while the votes in northern Ireland were down, 66% of the elected MEPs were for remain/pro EU parties. "Turnout was 45% of the 1,278,951 people eligible to take part, down on the 2014 election in which almost 52% eligible voters participated." But still way higher than mainland UK has ever been.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
This is why I despair sometimes. You get people saying the EU isn't perfect, we should reform it, and then constantly defend the EU.

You know Weavie, just once in a while you could think, “fair one, it could be better.” Instead of constantly defending it over everything.

The EU is far bigger now than ever before, we voted to leave as it wouldn't reform, a major issue with leavers is how the EU is democratically deficient and growing in power. Now with its own army. How about thinking sometimes, perhaps if the EU reformed, was more accountable to the people that would be a good thing? Instead of the Conservative/DUP whataboutery?
Why do you think I’m defending everything about the EU when I’m simply asking you to compare it to our own Parliament/Democratic processes? I get that you hate the EU and those who may support it but you’re equally entrenched.

With regards to the DUP, I was showing you how our own Government implements things you/we didn’t vote for. In the same way, democracy doesn’t always go your own way, as frustrating as that is. In the case of Cameron/Juncker, the UK electorate voted for Cameron to represent us in the EU, he expressed his concerns and, I assume, didn’t vote for Juncker but he was outvoted. It’s not what he wanted but it was a vote.

We didn’t vote for any of our Cabinet members, the Conservative Leader chose them, as they were elected by “us” to carry out the task of Governing the country. I’m sure you’ll call me the EU spin doctor because I’m not fawning over Farage but, without emotion, it’s a comparison of democratic processes. To add, I agree that the EU Parliament is clearly way too bureaucratic and that should change to streamline the way it works.

As for the “EU army” again. You’ve said yourself, it’s a coalition of sovereign militaries working on joint activities. As also stated previously, we don’t have to take part.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Why do you think I’m defending everything about the EU when I’m simply asking you to compare it to our own Parliament/Democratic processes?
Elsewhere you would call it "whataboutery."

You would say the thread was the European elections and not the UK elections so off topic.
I get that you hate the EU and those who may support it but you’re equally entrenched.
I only hate the EU as it is undemocratic and won't change. That's why I thought leaving was the best thing and still do. Even us voting to leaving hasn't given it pause. You'd think they might question they might be doing something wrong.
With regards to the DUP, I was showing you how our own Government implements things you/we didn’t vote for.
And whataboutery. How does it make it right?
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
The reason why people want Independence is because they feel they don't have enough say in how they are being governed.

Whether it's the US leaving the UK, Scotland and the UK, the UK and the EU. It's gone on throughout history.
 

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