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Europe Screws us yet again................

Discussion in 'Photography Forums' started by Johndm, May 5, 2005.

  1. Johndm

    Johndm
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    Well, I guess most of you guys here are aware of my fav subject.. :D

    I was looking forward to getting some 'in flight' shots of the only flying B-17 Flying Fortress in the UK this weekend at Duxford airshow.

    Once again, European legislation has screwed us, preventing this famous aircraft from flying this weekend, and maybe forever.. :mad:

    http://sallyb.dcgservices.com/news_frameset.php

    Could this be the beginning of the end for UK airshows?

    Wonder what will be next.....outlawing of the English language.....

    European Parliament......**** em all :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  2. Iain Shields

    Iain Shields
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    That, quite frankly... is disgusting!!

    The fact that this has been allowed to happen in Europe makes it even worse. :thumbsdow

    Unless something can be worked out where "classic" display aircraft can become exempt from the ever more stringent restrictions placed upon them, you may be correct

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  3. dejongj

    dejongj
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    Guys, whilst I can understand your disappointment....Your headlines don't tell the full story...

    Europe did not prevent the aircraft from flying, and this is not the beginning of the end of UK airshows...

    The true story is that the operating company can't afford the money for the insurance. And the letter received back from the government and MP's echo the suggestions that they need to get some sponsorship money....

    No need to blame Europe for this...And remember the UK is part of Europe as well, if you are old enough you had a chance to vote who represents you....
     
  4. SeaneyC

    SeaneyC
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    If my insurance company turned round and demanded a 500% hike in premium to cover uses which my item is incapable of doing anyway, i'd find it hard to get the money!
     
  5. dejongj

    dejongj
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    @SeaneyC: I am quite confident that some family member at one stage told you...If you can't afford it, don't buy it....Or perhaps more accurately like with cars, buying is easy, but maintaining it is the expensive bit...Hence there are so many uninsured cars in the UK...Yes I do realise that the plane was bought before the insurance premium hike, but hey so did many of us buying our houses before council tax went up year on year and now have voted the party in that will make it even more expensive by performing an adjustment review....

    And that is actually my real point, no point in blaming Europe and call them (very childish) names, its us people who vote for people to make decisions on our behalf...So it is our own fault if we don't like the results....

    You know it is the logical decision, VIKI said so ;-)
     
  6. Johndm

    Johndm
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    It is EUROPEAN legislation that puts this aircraft into the same group as a commercial airliner.

    Brussels loves to shaft the UK whenever it can.

    Remember pounds and ounces, the gallon maybe....or even Great Britain?

    Americans must be horrified to see the slow destruction of our country by a bunch of useless eurocrats interfering with the UK.

    One need only look at the list of EU nations to understand why there's no sympathy for preserving a flying example of a heavy tactical bomber. The only member nation that had them was the UK.

    You don't see too many European countries that can look back with pride on their participation in the air war that ultimately liberated most of them.

    I wonder what is next on Brussels' hit list....? Anything else they can think of that made Britain Great probably.

    :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  7. dejongj

    dejongj
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    As I said Johndm, you have voted those people in power! You voted for a metric system. You voted to have VAT, etc. etc.

    BTW There is a bit more word spinning going in your post, the Great in Great Britain refers to number of countries that were joined under one crown in 1707. Not to the other meaning of great as in being great...Unless you were suggesting that is was the combination of England, Scotland and Wales that made England great...In that case I take it back, but please use a lower case g next time...
     
  8. Johndm

    Johndm
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    Your name says it all......

    And for your information, I voted to leave the Common Market in the 1975 referendum.

    :clap:
     
  9. MartinImber

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    This is disgusting - there should be classic aircraft insurance!

    Anyway I did not vote this bunch of toss ers in - well they screwed up in the 1970s, scrapped TSR2 and generally killed the UK aviation industry
     
  10. Johndm

    Johndm
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    Quite correct.

    You can hear a BBC news report here by using the "listen again" facility.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/l...ain/index.shtml

    Scroll down the running order to 07.42 am.

    regards
     
  11. dejongj

    dejongj
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    That's quite some interpretation and prejudice...But I am not surprised considering we have this conversation....

    For your information, it is 2005, 30 years later and we have had at least 7 more elections since....Besides the use of 'You' is inteded as in the democracy that is being voted for by the citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland....

    I think we have exhausted this subject and bored everyone else now, perhaps better luck in 2009...
     
  12. Johndm

    Johndm
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    I think I'm gonna get banned in a minuite.... :rotfl: :rotfl:

    No, maybe not....but I'm crying with laughter...
     
  13. dejongj

    dejongj
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    j

    I agree that there should be classic aircraft insurance, why not start it up yourself if you feel so strongly about it?

    And yes you did vote that bunch of toss ers in, even if you did not vote for them directly you did it by voting for democracy, or by not voting at all.

    ROFL What is it with you guys quoting situations that happened 25-15 years ago? Come in the 21st century or you will be dissapointed for the rest of your life....

    It's your choice...

    BTW My excuse for contradicting myself by continuing the previous post is that these messages have crossed :rolleyes:
     
  14. SeaneyC

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    That's not the point at all. This example is more akin to living in your house for years, then the EU deciding that you must pay a 500% increase in tax, beacause you are actually living in a hotel. This is because your house has more than 5 rooms, despite the fact that you make no money from renting out rooms in it, or provide any kind of hotel services at all in your own home! (I don't know anything about hotel tax this is merely an example, although i assume it would be subject to higher rates)

    And if you must know, i am one of the people who "wasted" my vote by not voting for one of the big three.
     
  15. MartinImber

    MartinImber
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    History has a lot to do with today and most of the high tech industry damage happened under Labour - nationalising perfectly good companies and ruining them.

    NHS would be in better condition if hospitals had been allowed to keep their private wards as they used to subsidise the rest of the hospital!
     
  16. SeaneyC

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    Keeping on topic, it's unbelievable this machine won't be able to fly, must be an awesome sight. :)
     
  17. dejongj

    dejongj
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    @SeaneyC: I never stated that I must know who anyone votes for, but feel free to share....
    I do get your point (now...) and see where you are coming from. However this is not a tax being imposed. It is an insurance classification, these classifications are being based upon all sorts of reasons. There is no such thing as an commercial category, this is just being implied by making the comparison to a Boeing 737 which is in the same category. So that is where the hotel analagy breaks down...

    I agree it seems a big jump in minimum insurance required, however the Parlement is there to regulate the industry. To protect the rest of citizens by assuring that appropriate levels of insurance are in place for those unfortunate events. That was the government and its tax payers don't have to bail them out to repair homes or other infrastructure when an accident happens. That is part of their role.

    The insurance companies have an objective to make money, part of their ways in doing this is by finding a profitable balance between the risk and the assured amount. So from my perspective they should not be moaning to the government, but convince the insurance company that the risk of having to pay out £64mln is very small and not realistic...Which is that organisations few is based around the limited amount of flying hours and skills of its staff....As the insurance companies are risk based they can either say all right then, or you are having a laugh.....

    That is the real argument here...No different than what Insurance companies are doing every single year....Except that in this case the European Parliament has set a minimum amount of cover to ensure its own infrastructure is protected...
     
  18. Johndm

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    Yes it is 2005, and if it were not for the 80,000 brave American aircrew who died for 'democracy' Great Britain might be a very differant place today.

    You seem totally oblivious to the fact that this aircraft is maintained and flown as a mark of respect.

    :mad:
     
  19. dejongj

    dejongj
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    Right this can go on for ages if you don't stick to the subject...

    Where it was previously used is not the point, you have already been able to read that the British Government is not interested...

    Life would be so much more pleasant for you if you can get mad at the right people, instead of someone like me who is merely helping you to see what is really the case here...

    LOL Enjoy your weekend and don't get a hart attack, it's not worth it ;)
     
  20. Garfield

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    Been watching this thread all day and also reading some other articles about it on the web elsewhere and frankly the BS of some really gets me :mad: I am forced to wonder how the mind sets of some get established.

    We are talking about an aircraft that contributed to the freedoms we all take for granted today, flown by large numbers of people for whom it was the last thing they ever did.

    That there are those that exist with the protectionist lets wrap everyone in cotton wool nanny state views makes my blood boil.

    I suppose these are the same ones who will trip on a pavement and sue the council because they are to stupid to look where the fudge they are going or accept responsibility for their own actions - the 'where there's blame culture' is what is responsible for this insurance BS at the end of the day.

    To those people I say spend some time in a third world country away from your social security, supermarkets, national health, civil rights etc etc - you need a reality check.

    These aircraft should be allowed to fly, not just as a mark of respect to those who died to preserve freedoms we all enjoy but also to those that flew them that are still here, I'd let them fly uninsured .....

    Lest we forget ..... I am fortunate that I am old enough to have spoken to many who served in WW2 at great length, some horror stories and some of real humanity ... unfortunatly all this is gradually getting forgotten ... this is another nail in the coffin.
     
  21. Iain Shields

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    Wow, this thread has really took off (pardon the pun) and got a little heated since I last posted :eek:

    dejongj, I feel your annoyance with the result of the recent elections has spilled over into your replies on this thread, causing you to come across like your talking down on us. Your point about this coming down to who we vote for, while technically correct in a sweeping sense (it can be applied to most discussions and still be true), pretty much misses the point I was making.

    When I said I was disgusted that this has happened in Europe I was indeed including the UK in that statement. I'm angry at the EU, the insurance companies and the British government for all letting this important issue slip through the cracks of overly wide sweeping European regulations.

    This is a complete lack of respect for those people (and their families) who sacrificed so much during WW2. IMO there should be some sort of "classic" or "display" allowance from the insurance company... Or the British government should foot the bill.

    I'm quite dissapointed you said that, I think you will find many up and down the country (and other countries) that would STRONGLY dissagree with you :nono:

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  22. Rock Da Bass

    Rock Da Bass
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    Yuch! Who wants pounds and ounces back :thumbsdow The metric system's way better :clap:
     
  23. paulc1

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    hey, Ian shields, I am too disgusted at the UK for allowing this to happen, Baroness Thatcher would have not allowed our heritage to be rodden over roughshot, and further more, Hans, vontrappe and all of his mates would have let the fortress fly, with the only cover, being the seat of the pilots arse, sixty odd years ago, it makes me seethe with anger,...but rules is rules!!:)....sickening aint it.



    .
     
  24. Pottsy

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    The EU also tried to "ban" all vintage cars a few years ago. They were considered to be unsafe, and so they instructed us to only allow them to be driven on organised events. Furthermore, they wanted tachograph equipment fitted on all of them to monitor their usage.

    There are so many vintage car enthusiasts in the UK, that our government decided to do something about it. And they did. In France, for example, there are hardly any enthusiasts and they just let the EU loonies rule their lives.

    If you want to see how the EU is interfering with the UK, click here:
    http://www.kc3.co.uk/~dt/

    The Germans always thought they could run Europe better than the European countries themselves. Shame (IMO), after all our efforts to stop this, that they have finally achieved their goal.

    I think it's shocking that our aviation heritage is being destroyed. But I doubt anything will be done. (FWIW I drive a 737 for a living, and the safety of any aircraft is 90% down to the training/proficiency of the bloke(s) driving, not the aircraft itself).
     
  25. fraggle

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    This is a stupid comparison.

    Council tax does not jump 500% overnight.
    Either does car insurance.

    A fairer comparison is if your house was re-classified as an industrial unit housing high tech companies, or a multi million pound castle with tourists tramping through it, with appropriate council tax / rates.

    Or your car had just been re-classified as a bus just because it had 4 wheels, and you had to pay commercial TAX and insurance.

    Whoever modified these regulations in Europe should have added a clause disallowing vintage aircraft on the flying restrictions the Sally B has (and any other exemptions needed). *Thats* the problem, they're inconsiderate, thoughtless muppets. "I'm alright jack" sums them up.

    Rubbish, we are in the EU. No point crying over spilt milk.

    Why didn't our MEP see this coming and do something about it, is the real question?
     
  26. mr jones

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    yeh that made my blood boil it really did, and if they'd got away with it then id have been one of the many many classic car owners who spend thousands of hours restoring there cars who wouldnt stop. wouldnt scrap there classic and would just keep on driving, i own two classic cars and between them ive spent thousands of hours relentlessly restoring them. just like these enthusiasts who have worked long adn hard to ensure that this part of war heritage can still fly as a mark of respect, its a blatent insult to ground it for reasons as mentioned "because it has to be insured for things it cant possibly do"


    [sarcasm]seeing as the EU plan to remove all history i recommend torching your nearest art gallery, a blanket ban on war museums (they promote violence surely), we'll remove every cenataph (sp?) from the face of the world and a complete ban on those silly little poppy things that people wear in early november..... [/sarcasm]
    ****in hell government grow the **** up, look backwards, hundreds of thousands of people died so we can see freedom and this is how you repay them...
     
  27. mr jones

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    just incase im beavering away learning esperanto as we speak,.....
     
  28. fraggle

    fraggle
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    We've just had an election and the patients are running the asylum again.

    Not saying you voted for them, and I didn't, but enough sheep did :(

    Oh and CALM DOWN! :D
     
  29. imichael

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    um, I think you'll find that insurance levies are usually based on risk involved. An old aircraft flying over a litigative society that is the size of a small airliner will make them sweat.

    There has been a number of incidents at airshows etc (in fact any public event) over recent years that have forced premiums to raise as more and more people turn to litigation to recover losses. It only takes one sad numpty to claim that the unexpected noise of a low flying plane at an airshow (yeah, I know) caused them to throw their ice lolly onto the the large dog being walked by the one legged man caused the 48 car pile up on the M1 - and the lawyers are all too willing to have a go at proving that their client isn't actually a complete dick head.

    Even if the case is thrown out, it still makes your premiums go up, because next week it might be your insurer who is covering the numpty.

    It's sad, but until the world signs a disclaimer that doing something more dangerous than breathing is at your own risk, I'm afraid you're stuck with it. and it doesn't matter who you voted for, 'cos finance and insurance run on their own clock.
     
  30. MartinImber

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    A few of the V bombers could fly if given a bit more power - lets bomb Brussels!

    I think a couple of Vulcans will do!

    Insure that you gits!
     

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