EU threatens to block exports of Vaccine

mikeybabes2

Distinguished Member
I don't like the triumphant newspaper headlines.

I'm no fan of the EU, but the harsh fact is that people, and likely a lot of people, are going to die because of this screw up by the EU.

I have to leave the human tragedy aspect of this to one side, it is simply so terrible to think of all those who are going to lose loved ones. It's simply heartbreaking.

But there are other implications for the EU.

The EU has been on a constant quest for the individual states to cede ever increasing powers and responsibilities. Who can forget that notorious speech by Verhofstadt in the European Parliament ? The direction of travel is a single EU superstate.

Individual member states had been sorting out their vaccination requirements with the manufacturers, when the EU rolls into town and tells them to leave it to us, we are in charge of this, we can do better than you.....and for whatever insane reason - decided to be cheap, and also to try and hang on for the French Vaccine - which was sadly a failure.

So when there was the most important task that needed to be done, when it was literally a matter of life and death, those in charge decided to play politics rather than doing the one thing that was the most important - to protect those they claim to represent.

When this incompetence was discovered - what was the first thing they did ? They lashed out at everyone else, pointing the finger elsewhere and throwing their weight around. In any democratic organisations there would have been flurry of apologies and resignations.... but that's not the way the EU rolls.....

However, when this crisis has passed - hopefully that will be soon - I cannot imagine that states will be so keen to leave things up to the EU in future. In fact I can see this damaging the EU severely, and states demanding the return of powers - something anathema to those in power. The consequences for the the EU in the medium term, are likely to be very serious indeed.
 
The trouble with the story is that each side is trying to justify itself and the truth is the final casualty. There are facts

AstraZeneca is being paid roughly 40% per dose by the UK and tried to interpret its contracts in a way that allowed them to maximise profit, issuing a redacted version of their contract to try to justify the move.

This was not lawful and the EU threatened to respond by imposing export controls that had previously been waived.

Whilst the UK produces the vaccine at home there isn't the capacity in the UK to put the vaccine in phials - most of that is done in Germany.

The UK has delayed second doses in order to get more people vaccinated and, in part, to allow a greater buffer if any part of the supply chain is threatened.

Having initially stood aside in what was a dispute between the EU and AstraZeneca the UK asked Ireland to oppose a suspension of free movement under Article 16. Something Ireland had actually already done.

The PM spent some time explaining the fragility of the UK's position - delaying the second dose leaves the UK very vulnerable to supply chain issues - and promised to deliver additional doses to the EU once capacity could be ramped up.

AstraZeneca backed down under pressure from both the EU and the UK and is now fulfilling its contracts in a more even handed manner

You may be a Brexiter who wants to gloat over how the UK has employed a risky strategy that will immunise more people

You may be a Remainer/Rejoiner who wants to highlight how the UK is still relying on the EU and point out that were the UK still a member of the EU it would not have needed Ireland to intervene on their behalf

You may be an anti-capitalist who wants to condemn AstraZeneca for behaving in a way that jeopardised vaccine supplies to the EU just to make a bit more profit.

You may be an AstraZeneca shareholder who wants to condemn the UK and the EU for colluding to minimise your profits

There is plenty of blame to go around because no-one, with the possible exception of the Irish government and even they have an ulterior motive for keeping Ireland de facto united, has covered themselves in glory here
 

mikeybabes2

Distinguished Member
The trouble with the story is that each side is trying to justify itself and the truth is the final casualty. There are facts

AstraZeneca is being paid roughly 40% per dose by the UK and tried to interpret its contracts in a way that allowed them to maximise profit, issuing a redacted version of their contract to try to justify the move.

This was not lawful and the EU threatened to respond by imposing export controls that had previously been waived.

Whilst the UK produces the vaccine at home there isn't the capacity in the UK to put the vaccine in phials - most of that is done in Germany.

The UK has delayed second doses in order to get more people vaccinated and, in part, to allow a greater buffer if any part of the supply chain is threatened.

Having initially stood aside in what was a dispute between the EU and AstraZeneca the UK asked Ireland to oppose a suspension of free movement under Article 16. Something Ireland had actually already done.

The PM spent some time explaining the fragility of the UK's position - delaying the second dose leaves the UK very vulnerable to supply chain issues - and promised to deliver additional doses to the EU once capacity could be ramped up.

AstraZeneca backed down under pressure from both the EU and the UK and is now fulfilling its contracts in a more even handed manner

You may be a Brexiter who wants to gloat over how the UK has employed a risky strategy that will immunise more people

You may be a Remainer/Rejoiner who wants to highlight how the UK is still relying on the EU and point out that were the UK still a member of the EU it would not have needed Ireland to intervene on their behalf

You may be an anti-capitalist who wants to condemn AstraZeneca for behaving in a way that jeopardised vaccine supplies to the EU just to make a bit more profit.

You may be an AstraZeneca shareholder who wants to condemn the UK and the EU for colluding to minimise your profits

There is plenty of blame to go around because no-one, with the possible exception of the Irish government and even they have an ulterior motive for keeping Ireland de facto united, has covered themselves in glory here
You are clearly extremely il informed.

The Astra Zeneca vaccine is being supplied on a not for profit basis.
 
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apolloa

Distinguished Member
The trouble with the story is that each side is trying to justify itself and the truth is the final casualty. There are facts

AstraZeneca is being paid roughly 40% per dose by the UK and tried to interpret its contracts in a way that allowed them to maximise profit, issuing a redacted version of their contract to try to justify the move.

This was not lawful and the EU threatened to respond by imposing export controls that had previously been waived.

Whilst the UK produces the vaccine at home there isn't the capacity in the UK to put the vaccine in phials - most of that is done in Germany.

The UK has delayed second doses in order to get more people vaccinated and, in part, to allow a greater buffer if any part of the supply chain is threatened.

Having initially stood aside in what was a dispute between the EU and AstraZeneca the UK asked Ireland to oppose a suspension of free movement under Article 16. Something Ireland had actually already done.

The PM spent some time explaining the fragility of the UK's position - delaying the second dose leaves the UK very vulnerable to supply chain issues - and promised to deliver additional doses to the EU once capacity could be ramped up.

AstraZeneca backed down under pressure from both the EU and the UK and is now fulfilling its contracts in a more even handed manner

You may be a Brexiter who wants to gloat over how the UK has employed a risky strategy that will immunise more people

You may be a Remainer/Rejoiner who wants to highlight how the UK is still relying on the EU and point out that were the UK still a member of the EU it would not have needed Ireland to intervene on their behalf

You may be an anti-capitalist who wants to condemn AstraZeneca for behaving in a way that jeopardised vaccine supplies to the EU just to make a bit more profit.

You may be an AstraZeneca shareholder who wants to condemn the UK and the EU for colluding to minimise your profits

There is plenty of blame to go around because no-one, with the possible exception of the Irish government and even they have an ulterior motive for keeping Ireland de facto united, has covered themselves in glory here

AstraZeneca has done little wrong here, the EU did not want their vaccine at first instead relying on France to make one, when that failed other EU member states started discussions with AstraZeneca to purchase their vaccine, the EU commission blocked them from doing that and took over, it then spent weeks negotiation a special deal lower price then the COST price it was being sold at, now they hit expected production issues, they don’t knock these vaccines out like plastic toy cars in a Chinese sweat shop factory, batches fail, they have to grow things for it, hence why in the contract it constantly states ‘best efforts’ but that is being twisted to mean something else so the EU can look all innocent.
 

woppy101

Distinguished Member
The trouble with the story is that each side is trying to justify itself and the truth is the final casualty. There are facts

AstraZeneca is being paid roughly 40% per dose by the UK and tried to interpret its contracts in a way that allowed them to maximise profit, issuing a redacted version of their contract to try to justify the move.

This was not lawful and the EU threatened to respond by imposing export controls that had previously been waived.

Whilst the UK produces the vaccine at home there isn't the capacity in the UK to put the vaccine in phials - most of that is done in Germany.

The UK has delayed second doses in order to get more people vaccinated and, in part, to allow a greater buffer if any part of the supply chain is threatened.

Having initially stood aside in what was a dispute between the EU and AstraZeneca the UK asked Ireland to oppose a suspension of free movement under Article 16. Something Ireland had actually already done.

The PM spent some time explaining the fragility of the UK's position - delaying the second dose leaves the UK very vulnerable to supply chain issues - and promised to deliver additional doses to the EU once capacity could be ramped up.

AstraZeneca backed down under pressure from both the EU and the UK and is now fulfilling its contracts in a more even handed manner

You may be a Brexiter who wants to gloat over how the UK has employed a risky strategy that will immunise more people

You may be a Remainer/Rejoiner who wants to highlight how the UK is still relying on the EU and point out that were the UK still a member of the EU it would not have needed Ireland to intervene on their behalf

You may be an anti-capitalist who wants to condemn AstraZeneca for behaving in a way that jeopardised vaccine supplies to the EU just to make a bit more profit.

You may be an AstraZeneca shareholder who wants to condemn the UK and the EU for colluding to minimise your profits

There is plenty of blame to go around because no-one, with the possible exception of the Irish government and even they have an ulterior motive for keeping Ireland de facto united, has covered themselves in glory here
Almost everything you have written there is factually incorrect
 

apolloa

Distinguished Member
The EU was still threatening AZ and others last night:


And so last night Boris has promised U.K. produced vaccines to the EU again last night:


Although that was already in the contract, just not till after the U.K. order was fulfilled.
But it seems the EU are still trying to blame AZ for the mess they have for themselves into.
I think Boris could be a little more strong here in public, instead he hasn’t said a word.
 

woppy101

Distinguished Member
The EU was still threatening AZ and others last night:


And so last night Boris has promised U.K. produced vaccines to the EU again last night:


Although that was already in the contract, just not till after the U.K. order was fulfilled.
But it seems the EU are still trying to blame AZ for the mess they have for themselves into.
I think Boris could be a little more strong here in public, instead he hasn’t said a word.
He doesn’t need to say a word it’s between the EU and AZ, the only time action is required from the U.K. is if the EU do something stupid like try block the UKs vaccine supply from another manufacturer, like they tried before folding faster than superman on laundry day
 

apolloa

Distinguished Member
He doesn’t need to say a word it’s between the EU and AZ, the only time action is required from the U.K. is if the EU do something stupid like try block the UKs vaccine supply from another manufacturer, like they tried before folding faster than superman on laundry day

Not when it comes to erecting a hard border in the island of Ireland, then I’m afraid that has nothing to do with AstraZeneca, nor does it when the EU are directly threatening vaccination supplies to the U.K., the most basic duty of government is to protect the security of the countries population which includes health, and last week he came across as failing at that task by remaining silent, they hold a threat to supplies with sanctions being threatened on any pharmaceutical company that is seen to favour other nations over them, like the U.K. Canada and the US. IMO.
 
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woppy101

Distinguished Member
No, when it comes to erecting a hard border in the island of Ireland, then I’m afraid that has nothing to do with AstraZeneca, nor does it when the EU are directly threatening vaccination supplies to the U.K., the most basic duty of government is to protect the security of the countries population which includes health, and last week he came across as failing at that task by remaining silent, they hold a threat to supplies with sanctions being threatened on any pharmaceutical company that is seen to favour other nations over them, like the U.K. Canada and the US.
And as I said there is no need to inflate the situation, the EU threw the toys out of the pram with article 16 and then swiftly picked them back up and left with there tail between their legs when pressure was applied, sometimes silence speaks louder than you think, also the EUs reputation is now in tatters so there is no need for boris to get involved.
 

maddy

Distinguished Member
You've got to admire the complete tone-deafness of this kind of response from the EU President:


Reckon it'll go down a storm with the DUP.
 

apolloa

Distinguished Member
And as I said there is no need to inflate the situation, the EU threw the toys out of the pram with article 16 and then swiftly picked them back up and left with there tail between their legs when pressure was applied, sometimes silence speaks louder than you think, also the EUs reputation is now in tatters so there is no need for boris to get involved.

Again, when it’s a matter of borders that he signed to on Brexit, it is very much political and he should have made a public statement, I doubt he was silent behind the scenes regardless of the EU backtracked, which it only did after everyone had a right go at them. Borders are entirely under the political realm.
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
Apparently, it was Macron who first proposed that UvdL be European Commission President.
 
I see some are determined to cast this as EU wrong UK right instead of everyone wrong and being a bit priggish about it.

Fact is the only player that comes out of this storm in a teacup looking good is Ireland - and whilst I doubt it upsets too many in Westminister to think the Ireland can sometimes be the UK's proxy in the EU at times it would be very foolish to rely on that.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
Despite almost everything from your first post in this thread being completely wrong?

I can see the Ireland slant in your posts clearly though. Perhaps some honesty is required if you want to be taken seriously?
 
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Belzok

Well-known Member
I see some are determined to cast this as EU wrong UK right instead of everyone wrong and being a bit priggish about it.

Fact is the only player that comes out of this storm in a teacup looking good is Ireland - and whilst I doubt it upsets too many in Westminister to think the Ireland can sometimes be the UK's proxy in the EU at times it would be very foolish to rely on that.
Umm players?

How about the UK acting quickly and stumping up the extra cash so they get the population vaccinated quickly, is people not dying a win against the virus.

Not as though the UK acting early had much effect to the EU supply until they actually got around to placing an order.
 
Umm players?

How about the UK acting quickly and stumping up the extra cash so they get the population vaccinated quickly, is people not dying a win against the virus.

Not as though the UK acting early had much effect to the EU supply until they actually got around to placing an order.
Except the UK has one of the highest death rates from Covid in the world so that really doesn't hold water.

If you believe the New England Journal of Medicine - and it's up to you if you do or not the data is very open to interpretation - by delaying the second shot for as long as they have the UK has risked making as many as 30% of doses given out effectively useless.

And if you want to say it could go the other way and long term immunity could last longer that's a fair shout, there's very little data either way. I'm not entirely sure I'm happy with my mother being used as a lab rat for the rest of the world with no say in whether she participates in the experiment but that's just me. You may think very differently.
 

Belzok

Well-known Member
Except the UK has one of the highest death rates from Covid in the world so that really doesn't hold water.

If you believe the New England Journal of Medicine - and it's up to you if you do or not the data is very open to interpretation - by delaying the second shot for as long as the UK has as many as 30% of doses may be effectively wasted.

And if you want to say it could go the other way and long term immunity could last longer that's a fair shout, there's very little data either way. I'm not entirely sure I'm happy with my mother being used as a lab rat for the rest of the world with no say in whether she participates in the experiment but that's just me. You may think very differently.
This is the thread about the EU blocking the export of the vaccine, death rate is another thread.

People here have said that they've been booked in for the second dose, we've also been making more deals for the supplies of vaccines. The EU is months behind us even starting to vaccinate at all.
 
This is the thread about the EU blocking the export of the vaccine, death rate is another thread.

People here have said that they've been booked in for the second dose, we've also been making more deals for the supplies of vaccines. The EU is months behind us even starting to vaccinate at all.
So it's only about people when the EU looks bad?

Carry your double standard into battle?

The EU has started slower, largely because like the State of Israel the UK has a universal healthcare system that is extraordinarily good - the NHS is behind the effective distribution of the vaccine.

And yes people are being booked in for their second dose - after 12 weeks not the recommended 4 - that was the point.

Immunity builds after the first dose then reaches a plateau, if the second dose is received in time that level of immunity goes up again - if the second dose is too late there is a much greater chance that it either declines or remains at the lower level.

Maybe you're completely happy with the UK's population being lab rats - I'm far less happy with that.
 

Belzok

Well-known Member
No, there is a different thread on the topic specifically about the UK death rate vs other countries, otherwise you're taking this one off topic?

You seem to be assuming the EU will roll out the vaccine impeccably, and they haven't even started.

I'm sure I've seen people on this forum saying they've had their two week second dose booked when they got the first.

I hope we can do better with the second dose, but we have at least started.
 
No, there is a different thread on the topic specifically about the UK death rate vs other countries, otherwise you're taking this one off topic?

You seem to be assuming the EU will roll out the vaccine impeccably, and they haven't even started.

I'm sure I've seen people on this forum saying they've had their two week second dose booked when they got the first.

I hope we can do better with the second dose, but we have at least started.
You act as though the deaths and the disease are unconnected and try to impose an artificial distinction. How every convenient for your very obvious agenda

And perhaps you could point out where I said the EU roll out would go impeccably because I don't recall saying it anywhere. In fact the attempt by AstraZeneca to renege on the contract it negotiated was something very much acknowledged as a bump in the road

Do you want to threat the rushed roll out of test and trace and it's failure separately as well? And the scientific advice on opening up at Christmas? And how the failure of this government to follow scientific advice has resulted in extra deaths before - I assume that's something that's completely separate too. It's not as if they're ignoring scientific advice on the vaccine as well..... Oh wait.
 

Belzok

Well-known Member
You act as though the deaths and the disease are unconnected and try to impose an artificial distinction. How every convenient for your very obvious agenda

And perhaps you could point out where I said the EU roll out would go impeccably because I don't recall saying it anywhere. In fact the attempt by AstraZeneca to renege on the contract it negotiated was something very much acknowledged as a bump in the road

Do you want to threat the rushed roll out of test and trace and it's failure separately as well? And the scientific advice on opening up at Christmas? And how the failure of this government to follow scientific advice has resulted in extra deaths before - I assume that's something that's completely separate too. It's not as if they're ignoring scientific advice on the vaccine as well..... Oh wait.
It's still the wrong thread...

There is another thread which has debated the death rate in detail, with many people's view point.

My obvious agenda, really.

Simply saying the EU has completely dropped the ball on the vaccinations and then try to block exports because they mucked up is horrendous, oh my what a terrible agenda I have.

We are way ahead of the curve on the vaccination program, but of course that's just my agenda again.
 
It's still the wrong thread...

There is another thread which has debated the death rate in detail, with many people's view point.

My obvious agenda, really.

Simply saying the EU has completely dropped the ball on the vaccinations and then try to block exports because they mucked up is horrendous, oh my what a terrible agenda I have.

We are way ahead of the curve on the vaccination program, but of course that's just my agenda again.
A very definite agenda full of 'begging the question'

To seperate the part from the whole is like singling out the one six in a batting collapse and a 200+ run and ten wicket defeat.

Things must be put in their proper context and the context is Boris taking far too many risks. Covid is not done yet, unusually for a novel virus it is becoming more aggressive - that's exactly the opposite to how things normally work where mutations become milder because viruses want to keep their hosts around.

A mutation that overwhelms the protection of the first dose will set everyone backwards and the larger the number of people with just a first dose the more of a chance there is of that happening. The longer the gap between the first and second doses the more chance of that happening - and the more concentrated the populations with only one dose - like say in care homes - the greater the chance of an escape mutation

Much as you may want to wave the Union Flag and declare victory in fever or nationalist fervour alienating the people we're at the very least relying on to put the vaccine doses into phials is not the way to go.
 

mikeybabes2

Distinguished Member
Much as you may want to wave the Union Flag and declare victory in fever or nationalist fervour alienating the people we're at the very least relying on to put the vaccine doses into phials is not the way to go.
The vaccine manufactured in the UK sites is being put into vials in Wrexham. You are so ill informed it is embarrassing......

What incorrect information are you going to come up with next - are you going to tell us that Wrexham is in Bavaria ?


Besides, watching the EU making a series of predictable blunders that will cost thousands upon thousands of our neighbour's lives is no kind of victory, and no one has said so. It's a figment of your rather vivid imagination, and a rather unpleasant one at that.
 
The vaccine manufactured in the UK sites is being put into vials in Wrexham. You are so ill informed it is embarrassing......

What incorrect information are you going to come up with next - are you going to tell us that Wrexham is in Bavaria ?


Besides, watching the EU making a series of predictable blunders that will cost thousands upon thousands of our neighbour's lives is no kind of victory, and no one has said so. It's a figment of your rather vivid imagination, and a rather unpleasant one at that.
Some of the vaccine is put into phials in Wrexham - you need to be better informed -


At the very least you would need to explain how the EU could affect supplies of a vaccine that is both manufactured and put into phials in the UK? I think you'll find that you've defeated your own argument very effectlvely.

It's good that the EU and the UK are cooperating to produce and roll out the vaccine - it's bad that the AstraZeneca board tried to insert itself into that to make some extra profit. It's good that the EU and the UK have reached an understanding.

And dealing with the reality isn't a bad thing. Having the resources of the EU to supply the best distribution system in the world - or the second best if you think Israel's healthcare system is better than the NHS - is a good thing. (of course if the UK had still been in the EU the move to prevent vaccines being sent out of the EU would have had zero effect on the NHS distribution but let's not dwell on that)
 
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