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Epson TW100: Stuck Green Pixels

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Beamer, Sep 29, 2002.

  1. Beamer

    Beamer
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    Does anyone own a TW100 that does not have stuck green or at least intermittent green pixels?

    I have tested three new TW100's and all either had stuck green or intermittent green pixels. One of them had 5 fixed and 4 intermittent all of which were green and yes they were all pixel problems and not dust in the optics.

    Seems to me that the TW100 may have a weakness in this area, perhaps a duff batch of green TFT modules.

    To test for the problem, turn the pattern on to grey scale and carefully look over the screen when first switched on and then again after say two hours of normal usage. On the other hand if you don't spot them in normal usage I guess their not important ;)

    BTW the official line from Epson is that they will allow up to 20 stuck or dead pixels!
     
  2. meva

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    Which is why I won't be buying an Epson ( or a Sony HS-10 ). I hate this LCD dead pixel lottery. I know HCC say look before you buy but how realistic is that !! Especially when you live in deepest Cornwall ( lovely though it is )
     
  3. Timh

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    :eek: A good reason for us all to boycot Epson Projectors.
     
  4. Messiah

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    Oh dear :( . Guess I won't have those issues any longer. Guess you must be hypersensitive to them as I did not see any with either of the two I owned (for a short while :D ) although that's not to say they weren't there.

    Think with me I just got on and enjoyed the movie and tried not to be too hypercritical in looking for these sorts of problems. Anyways, another few weeks and my CRT should be set up :D can't wait.
     
  5. Timh

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    No dead pixel problems for you then :D
     
  6. nelson

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    I don't think Epson's policy of "20 dead pixels is acceptable" is sufficient reason to boycott their products, not unless everyone experiences this problem with their projectors.

    I have no dead pixels on my unit and haven't seen any stuck ones either. I still think this is a great projector and am very happy with mine. :)

    I think you have simply been very unlucky.

    Annoying as this is, remember to put things into perspective. As the TW100 has almost 3 million pixels in total across the three colour panels, we should think ourselves lucky when we get a completely clear unit. How many other products at this level of complexity are completely trouble free?

    In fact I wish I could buy a car that has as few problems as a couple of stuck pixels and look how much they cost in comparison.

    After all the years car manufacturers have had to get things right, they still screw up time with every model they introduce and spending £100,000 on a car still doesn't guarantee trouble free motoring, yet I don't see people giving up buying cars.

    I think we have to accept that projectors are not yet perfect (and probably never wil be), neither in performance or build quality. We must accept some compromises are inevitable and learn to simply enjoy the movie we are watching instead of being constantly critical of their shortcomings.

    As I find that visible pixels or screendoor is a non-issue at 16ft distance form an 8 foot wide screen, I doubt that a single stuck pixel would even be noticeable unless viewing a black screen. Surely it would be so small as to be lost amongst all the other colours being displayed, unless you concentrate on looking for it once identified it's there.

    I don't see this unit as being problematic with regard to dead pixels from what I read on this and other forums. Most users seem to have clear units and are happy with them.

    I know there are better units out there, but I'm not prepared to pay three times the price for a very slight gain. I haven't seen anything better or indeed as good for the price. The main comment I get when people unfamiliar with HT see the TW100 for the first time, is that they didn't realise that the picture could be so good. They are genuinely stunned. For me that says a lot about a product. They just watch and enjoy. I recommend everyone tries to do the same until the technology makes a leap forward. It will get better no doubt about it, but for now what I have is just fine. ;)
     
  7. Beamer

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    When you calculate the odds of all pixel failures being green on three projectors, that should ring alarm bells for Epson especially when their main distributor has only sold sixteen units and four of them have been returned!

    I'm happy for everyone that does not have this problem and even happier for those that can ignore the problem but I'm still interested in hearing from the other 10+ owners regarding the green pixel peril.

    Neil, is there going to be a grand opening at your place when the big switch gets thrown on the CRT :) I have my popcorn ready;)
     
  8. meva

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    All good points BUT I bet you wouldn't feel the same if you had dead pixels ( knowing that some people didn't ). I would hate the thought that somebody who paid the same money as me for a supposedly indentical product had a flawless version whilst mine had ( admittedly tiny ) flaws. Especially at £3500. If Epson have very few problems with stuck/dead pixels they should replace the units that have.
     
  9. The Nightfly

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    My TW100 has two problem green pixels but fortunately they are quite difficult to find, even when you know roughly where they are. From the seating position they are just not visible.

    Whilst my projector was back at Epson being re-cleaned (it was fine until they cleaned it) I had a unit on-loan. This was a new unit, arrived in a sealed box. This loan projector had one problem green pixel but was really intense, far worse than than the two faint ones I have. If this had been my projector I definitely would have rejected it whereas I can happilly live with my own.

    Allan
     
  10. xander

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    I have also gone through 3 different TW100 projectors that all had dead/stuck pixles and this was excluding the demo model that apparently also had the same problem. I think as consumers we should stand together and refuse to accept this level of quality.
     
  11. Beamer

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    Xander: Were they GREEN by any chance?
     
  12. xander

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    I remember that one of them had a *very* bright stuck green pixel in the middle towards the top. Most of the others were blue and red from memory.
     
  13. Andy Hill

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    I have just bought a TW100 which has 2 'misfiring' green pixels and like Allan Probin, find them difficult to see while enjoying a movie. These appear to switch off on a black screen and are invisible on blue and red screens. They are only visible on light scenes and appear brighter than the surrounding pixels.

    Whilst annoying, I accepted problem pixels as an inherent risk of going with LCD technology. Unfortunately, DLP was out due to my wife suffering severe side effects of the 'rainbow' artifact and a CRT was just not possible. I think by reading these posts I am relatively lucky and would not want to replace mine.

    I have noticed one other problem, not pixel related. When using S Video and Composite connection to my DVD player and setting up the picture with AVIA I noticed that vertical lines were bent 4 or 5 pixels to the left over the top 1/8 of the panel. This does not occur on PC VGA input and using the internal 'H' and greyscale Patterns. I have not tried component yet, as the player has not arrived. My DVD player outputs NTSC as PAL60, but tried another player which says it outputs pure NTSC and it is still bent. Region 2 PAL disks show no bending. Contacted Epson and they had not heard of the problem, but did say there was a newer version of firmware v1.10 (mine had v1.08), but could not tell me what it was designed to fix. They also told me the 20 problem pixel limit, but on questioning it is reviewed on a one by one basis - i.e. the louder you shout the more likely you are to get it replaced.

    Anyone have this bending problem with their TW100 ?

    Despite all of this, I am very happy with the projector and in particular its picture quality and I haven't even played with the settings yet

    Andy
     
  14. petrolhead

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    Checked mine yesterday after reading the thread.

    To be honest I had never noticed any stuck pixels until this thread and on close inspection have found one.

    This I feel is acceptable and as I would have to look for it and it doesn't spoil my viewing pleasure at all. I sit 12' away from an 8' screen.

    Like others have said it must be put into perspective. If you have 20 out of 3 Million this represents a very small persentage (0.0000066%)

    Now if all 20 were grouped together that could be a different case.

    Also concider the poor people who have bought the Panny AE100 which has had a very poor start and people still buy it.
     
  15. Beamer

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    Petrolhead: What colour is the failed pixel?
     
  16. Guest

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    My TW100 has 1 (one) green misfiring pixel in the top left quadrant of the LCD. It's not very noticable as it is, but I've colored a pixel sized Post-it note a light purple shade (with pencil) and stuck it to the screen. The pixel is now completely invisible. Got this tip form the AVS forum.

    It misfires as follows: above a certein threshold it opens at full intensity, below that threshold it's ok.

    It is said that misfiring pixels may correct themselvels over time. I believe a av forum member had this experience (not sure who it was).
     
  17. petrolhead

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    Sorry Beamer, should have said - GREEN - Huh

    Mr Custard,

    I have heard it all now, made me laugh. So, if I understand you correctly, you have a tiny 2mm x 2mm piece of postit not stuck to the screen. Is it a fixed or roll up screen? :) :)
     
  18. Guest

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    You got that right... it's a fixed screen of course... but hey, it works and at zero cost. (the pencil was laying around doing nothing anyway, and the post-it I took home from work... Actually, i took a whole packet... but I used only a tiny bit. really! It won't happen again officer !!

    :D
     
  19. Beamer

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    So it seems that nearly all TW100's are suffering from green pixel problems. Does anyone know if the Panasonic AE100 suffers more from green pixel problems than any other colour?
     
  20. Guest

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    come to think of it... i have never seen a PJ with a defective red pixel. Mostly green, and 1 or 2 blue... must have something to do with the fabrication process... the 3 3M Pjs at work also suffer from defective pixels and apart from 1 blue, the other defective pixels are green as well...
     
  21. Kramer

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    Only difference being nearly, if not all AE-100 retailers had a "swap out" policy in the case of defective pixels.

    Even pricejapan would replace a unit for even 1 open/dead pixel.

    And the AE-100 costs 1/3rd the price of a TW-100 :eek:

    My first AE-100 had a stuck blue pixel, & I can assure you it was clearly visible at even 5 times screen width - totally unacceptable.

    My current one has a strange pixel. About 10% of it is slightly brighter than the surrounding area, & only occasionally.

    It's never visible unless I put my nose against the screen, & then only with a certain shade of grey showing.

    This IS acceptable.

    But Epson quoting up to 20 as being acceptable - they must be mad. That wouldn't even pass for commercial/data use. & certainly not for HC @ > £3,000.
     
  22. xander

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    >>But Epson quoting up to 20 as being acceptable

    Cannot agree more with you!
     
  23. meva

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    My Philips has a defective red pixel, and 1 green one. I have to admit you do stop noticing then after a while. But, as I said , I wouldn't accept any on a £3500 projector.
     
  24. crises

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    Ive had a TW100 for a few weeks now and yes it has stuck pixels. There are about 4 green and 1 blue. The green i dont notice and dont care about as they aren't obtrusive to me at least. the blue pixel is really close to the center of the screen and only shows up on blue background for some reason but it annoyed me a lot at first.

    I find that just sitting a few extra feet back makes them all invisible due to the high resolution of the projector but really i don't think its good at all for any dead pixels especially at a 3k+ price point. Maybe Epson are applying business market values to a much more critical home market, I doubt a company would return for dead pixels.

    The nice thing about the TW100 is the total lack of screendoor, i hated this on the AE100 but considering the price difference i would have been happy to put up with the AE100 if i could have found one that would work for more than a few hours :( 3k is just too much money for the TW100.

    The biggest problem my TW100 has is non-uniform colours, the top left and bottom right of the screen are tinged green and the top right and bottom left are tinged red.

    After going through two AE100's with the "red led of death" i don't want the hassle of returning this TW100 as i feel that LCD projection is always going to have some sort of problem, i just regret spending so much.
     
  25. PennyLane

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    After reading this thread I checked my projector for stuck green pixels, and YES - there are A LOT of them. Some 15 very bright ones and about the same that are less bright. And they are all GREEN. And now that I know where they are, I can see them from my viewing distance (about 4 meter).

    I will contact Epson in Finland this very day. This baby is going back !
     
  26. EmuMannen

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    I did the same, found two problematic pixels. One green and one blue. I haven't seen them before and I had a really hard time finding them or even relocate them once found. I don't find this much of a problem (if I have a hard time finding them 20 cm from the screen surface) compared to the brightly lit stuck pixels I have seen on other projectors (not TW100).

    I spotted another problem though, not the bending one above but a green pixel offset of one pixel below for the green panel to the right and almost one pixel to the left. I get a magenta shade on the right top side of the lines if I bring up the internal hatch pattern. It is going fron nothing on the left to one pixel on the right. I also get a faint green blur on the left side of the lines and dots all over the picture.

    I guess that my green panel is a bit misaligned and I will have to bring this up with Epson. Anyone know if it is possible to adjust the panel alignment by yourself? I would hate to part from my TW100 but maybe it can be done when I have to bring it in for the next firmware update...
     
  27. PennyLane

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    I talked to a Finnish guy today (he's been in this line of business since the mid 80's), and I got a fairly technical explanation as to how the panels are built. To be honest, I didn't understand even half of it, but the bottom line is: "Do NOT try to mess with the panels yourself".

    You can have the panels exchanged, meaning that an authorised service company orders a set of new panels for you and then does the actual installation work as well (1-2 h of work, once you have the panels).

    This is according to the Finnish guy I talked to. Tonight I will do another "pixel count", and tomorrow I'll call him back and we'll agree on how to settle this issue.

    PS. All this information was provided by a Finnish retailer of Epson projectors, not by Epson Finland.
     
  28. Andy Hill

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    EmuMannen,
    I too have noticed a similar misalignment of the LCD panels when trying to focus the internal 'H' pattern. The right side of the screen is sharp with no colour bleed on the white lines or letters. However, on the left side the blue pixels are shifted nearly 1 pixel to the left and the red half a pixel upwards. That said, I cannot see any blurring or defocusing using any of the test screens on AVIA an it is definately not noticable with movies.

    I also checked 2 projectors at work (an Epson and a Mitsubishi) and they also have poorly aligned RGB panels. Guess it is a common problem. with 3 panel LCD's.

    Andy
     
  29. EmuMannen

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    FYI, I find the picture to be near perfect (no screen door, great colours, great percieved blacks etc.) even though the internal hatch pattern is showing some panel misalignment...
     
  30. Beamer

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    My purpose of starting this thread was to ascertain the number of TW100's that suffered faulty pixels, it was not intended to make owners feel bad after they found that their projector was not perfect. My experience up until Tuesday was that I had tested three TW100 PJ's and all of them were unacceptable to me because the stuck pixels detracted from my viewing pleasure.

    I have now received a fourth unit and using the greyscale pattern test I can spot around 5 green pixels that are slightly lit a 1 red also slightly lit. This PJ is however quite different from those tested earlier as I cannot see the 'leaking' pixels from my viewing distance of around 14 feet, I actually need to be about 4-5 feet from the screen to spot the 'leaking' pixels and then it's difficult.

    Although I would have liked a perfect PJ with no defect pixels, I have accepted this unit on the basis that I do not have my attention drawn to a pixel while watching a film and in fact would never know of any pixel problems if I had not checked it with the greyscale test.

    I am not an expert in PJ's, in fact this is my first PJ experience and for what it is worth, despite all the agravation I have had, I have stayed with the TW100 because of the incredible picture quality.

    Bottom line: As my initial thread suggested, if you have not noticed problem pixels with normal viewing and they are not a problem with your viewing now that you know you have some, just sit back and enjoy! life's to short to worry about what you cannot see;)
     

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