Eos M video - disappointing or faulty?

Discussion in 'Camcorders, Action Cams & Video Making Forum' started by M Stewart, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. M Stewart

    M Stewart
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    For some years I've captured enjoyable HD video using either a Sony HDR-HC5 or a Canon HF30. Both of these are tape based MiniDV models capturing video to HDV standard. Played back via an HDMI cable the quality on my 50" Panasonic Plasma TV is fine.
    A week ago I bought an Eos M (Mirror-less compact system camera with interchangeable lenses, and an APS-C sized sensor), and I'm pleased with the still images it gives. So I've tried out the video setting, and have been disappointed. Before doing this, I bought an SDHC card with a speed rating higher than Canon's minimum for video. Video clips of moving trains (on the WCML) are fine viewed on its LCD, but seen on my TV via the HDMI cable, they show choppiness with the moving trains demonstrating variable length as they go past - a bit like the way a caterpillar changes length! (Just to make sure, I've repeated the train shots with my HF30 and they're OK.)
    I've checked that the Eos M Video is set to PAL, and have tried it on NTSC, and then back to PAL. As expected this changes the available video fps settings, and I've ensured that the camera has been set to the 1920x1080 @25fps setting. However, when the HDMI cable is connected to the camera when it's replaying video, the TV screen shows "1080i/60Hz input" briefly - exactly the same as it does when the camera is set to NTSC.
    Using the same HDMI cable, I've tried my Canon SX40HS playback in its video mode, and there's no problem. The brief video mode message after connection shows correctly.

    Has anyone else noticed this with an Eos M?

    Edit: "HF30" should read "HV30".
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  2. rogs

    rogs
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    From what you are describing, if sounds as if the effect maybe caused by the rolling shutter.
    All current CMOS sensor cameras and camcorders (except the Blackmagic 4K) still use a rolling shutter, and although the problems with these are now minimal on most camcorders, they are still sometimes reported from the large sensor DSLRs, in video mode. It seems that the scan speeds tend to be slower with these large sensor cameras..
    The other complaint is moiré problems, as a result of poor video quality OLPF (optical low pass filters) fitted to these cameras.
    Understandable in some ways. The conflicting requirements for high quality still images, and for lower resolution video images -from the same large sensor (designed primarily for 'stills' use) - doesn't tend to always produce top quality video results -- especially with fast movement.

    These large sensors do have their uses in video of course... their size makes them good in low light, and the ability to 'open up' the aperture allows folk to use the 'shallow depth of field' effect so beloved by some film makers!
    High speed motion, however, doesn't tend to be one of their strong points.

    I can't see that the card speed should make any difference, providing it's a class 4 or higher?...
     
  3. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    The CAnon HF-30 is a card cam i expect yours is the HV30,i have a HF-G30 and EOS M,for general filming the G30 is much easier,but if care is taken my EOS M takes lovely video,but you cant use it as run and gun like a camcorder.But from what you describe i suspect there is a fault with your EOS M





    3 Films of mine and 2 from another EOS M user
    For some reason vimeo plays jerky on my pcs unless i download the films,luckily rolling shutter is not a problem for me on my camcorder or cameras.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  4. M Stewart

    M Stewart
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    Thanks for pointing out my error re the HF30 / HV30 naming. My camcorder is the HV30.

    When I tried shooting video with my Canon 5D Mk II the rolling shutter on that was bad, and quite useless for my normal mix of interests which include heritage rail lines, so perhaps what I was seeing with the Eos M was rolling shutter artefacts.

    Thanks for posting the examples. My Broadband (?!) isn't fast enough to view them live, but I'll try and cache them for viewing later.
     
  5. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    Ok,like i said rolling shutter does not affect me,even with the EOS M, moire and aliasing can be a problem more so than with my Camcorders.
     
  6. Chelters

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    This effect could be caused by "stabilisation". I see it often on youtube, where the videographer (in the loosest of terms - phone at arm length!) takes youtube up on it's offer to stabilise their footage.
     
  7. M Stewart

    M Stewart
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    I was using a tripod..., but the lens I was using (EF-M 18-55 IS) did have IS turned "On", and I wondered later whether the IS might be affected by the image being captured.
     
  8. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    [Hi

    25fps is possibly the problem. Movement will judder at that framerate. if you have the option to shoot 50i or 50p that should resolve it.

    Regards

    Phil
     
  9. noiseboy72

    noiseboy72
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    Like what they said! I have a brace of EOS700s for stills and more arty video and a couple of Panasonic camcorders - an X920 and an AG-AC90 for footage requiring fast moving action, greater depth of field etc.

    As a rule, anything handheld needs the camcorders, as does anything that moves quickly across the field of view. That being said, a heritage line loco won't be moving much above about 30MPH, so I would have been reasonably confident at filming that on the DSLR. A lot of my stuff for work is trucks, and I film a lot of this on the DSLRs without issue.

    If you put the SD card in the TV / media player and play it at the correct frame rate, how does it look?
     
  10. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    25P is not the problem,canon cameras record video at 25P or 720P MOV,but i stick to 25P on my main camcorder as well despite 50P and 35Mbps Mpeg4 options.At present all video on line has a jerky playback on my pc & laptop depite good broadband,downloading shows the true film especialy if its full vimeo not restricted free vimeos 500mb.The only way to judge the ops problem is to watch a few minutes showing some footage.
     
  11. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    YouTube "stabilisation" is a disaster, use it at your peril. I took up the "offer" on my first downloaded video and it totally ruined my film - NEVER AGAIN.
     
  12. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    It is the problem, 25fps is very slow and the illusion of motion is lost quite quickly. It is film rate essentially, and it is well known that films have to be shot in a specific way to avoid noticeable judder, such as the 180 degree shutter rule.

    Note the OP didn't mention anything about YouTube.

    YouTube doesn't support 50fps either as 50i or 50p, it will downgrade that to 25fps. 25fps will have extra judder on a computer and even 50fps will have a judder when watched on a computer showing motion, such as scrolling credits or steady pans which shows up these things. This is because all computers and other devices have a screen refresh rate of 60fps. 25 or 50 does not go evenly into 60, so extra frames are added but can't be spaced evenly, so you get uneven repeated frames.

    If you are lucky you have a graphics card you can set to 50Hz, often needs fiddling about in the settings to achieve, but that gives wonderfully perfect smooth motion on 50fps. HD TVs have no such issues as of course they switch to 50Hz automatically, the only problem with motion will come from 25fps.

    Examples of using the 180 degree shutter rule to give more natural movement:
    Shutter Speed Test


    More information here:

    Shutter-speeds and the 180 Degree Rule | Luis Power

    To the OP, if you are stuck with 25fps as the fastest framerate, set a manual shutter speed of around 1/50th a second and see if the resulting motion blur in each frame helps smooth it out. The negative with this is you will not be able to "freeze frame" and get a clear image, as movement will be blurred.

    Regards

    Phil
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  13. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    All my films in Blu Ray and AVCHD disc play wIthout ANY judder at all filmed in 25P thats all i care,and 25P has no bearing on the ops problem,unless a film is dowloaded watching for true quality is poinless

    Recorded 25P not Mpeg4 as i have only ever used it in test shots,but this one is only on free vimeo so low MB
     
  14. M Stewart

    M Stewart
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    I've now tried that, and I think the results are somewhat better than by leaving the card in the camera, and using the HDMI cable.
    What I did discover is that I need to press the AV button on the TV remote to bring up the AV device input selector screen, and then choose the SDHC card input. If I don't do that, the files are found, but I get an error message saying incompatible video or similar. Anyway, unplayable, although the still images are displayed OK. The video I shot this AM wasn't strictly comparable with my earlier takes, as the WCML just north of MK station was running very slowly this morning, with north bound Pendolinos using the Down Slow tracks.
    I think I'll stick to using my MiniDV HDV camcorders, as they work well in this role, and can cope with Pendolinos at full speed, so can clearly manage Heritage Steam loco stuff - and it seems easier on the HV30 to choose Manual Exposure which is useful when container trains are passing - stops the brightness hunting.
     
  15. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    The EOS M is much more difficult to film video with than the HV30,my HV30,that i stopped useing 3 years ago,[i still keep it incase a tape ever needs copying],But the EOS M i have takes far superior video to THE HV30 if its used correctly,i tend to use mine over my HF-G30 a fair bit,the G30 is a very good camcorder but the footage is has a more typical video look compared to the EOS M.
    If you are happy with your HV30 which i rate as the best tape cam i have had you are best to keep useing it.
     
  16. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    The slow frame rate is very noticeable on those clips, not easy to watch for me sat a metre away from a 24" monitor, then just for fun the extra judder of 50 into 60Hz makes it worse, although I could switch to 50Hz on the monitor to elevate that, the 25fps judder would still be apparent.

    Surely you saw from the example article I posted what the issue is. Odd you are saying no judder at 25/24fps yet it is an industry known issue? Did you read about the 180 degree shutter rule, are you saying that article is wrong then? What about all these, are they wrong too? why is video at 25fps judder - Google Search Further information can be read on the Wiki, Frame rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is that also wrong?

    25fps as 50i would be judder free because it de-interlaces to 50fps on HD TVs (albeit with reduced resolution per frame), perhaps you are really recording 50i? Doesn't matter what you record in anyway for YouTube, it will become a juddery 25fps anyway.

    The OP switching to their HV30 is of course then recording in 50i by default, hence no issue. I suggest to the OP to try a test with their HV30 set up for 25fps, think it is called Cine mode, and see if the same problems are apparent.

    If you are happy with your output that is fine, but is it only you watching them? I'm sure others would appreciate 50i, there is certainly no artistic merit in that kind of footage to warrant the effort of a film look that people would typically use 25fps for. If you are lucky to have a TV that interpolates frame-rates that will go a long way to smoothing out motion and might explain why Blu-ray and AVCHD looks okay, but I'm surprised you can't see it on the Vimeo clip.

    Regards

    Phil
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  17. M Stewart

    M Stewart
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    Hi Phil,
    Thanks for your comments.
    I have tried the "cine" mode on the HV30 and discarded it very quickly.
    Using another camera (a Panasonic NV-MX300 with a 3CCD sensor) with pretensions to greatness (some years ago) it did its best to use slow shutter speeds, and small apertures. I tried a variety of settings, and found that for my interests, a short shutter speed and not using the cine mode, was best. At the time, I did find this a puzzle, as the marketing was clearly aimed at a different audience to someone living close to the WCML, where approach speeds of 100mph with tilt are common.
     
  18. rogs

    rogs
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    I think the percieved sense of judder can be confusing. These two 5 second clips:

    www.jp137.com/lvs/sk25.mp4
    www.jp137.com/lvs/sk50.mp4

    are identical apart from the frame rate. One is 25p the other 50p. They are not (HD (obviously!).
    In both clips the skaters movement appears 'smooth'.. No ' judder' in either clip on that front.
    Except of course there's actually very little 'movement' by the skaters, from a video point of view --
    -- and they are skating against the 'consistent' background of the ice. They look fine in both clips.
    The lines on the ice however (at the end of the clip) look very different at 50p. You can see them clearly as they pass under the skaters. In the 25p clip, those same lines are just a messy blur.
    Does it matter?..... well that's the point. If you just watch the skaters, you wouldn't care. But the background movement can be very 'juddery' at 25p - if that's important to you....
    (Which, I'm guessing, is probably why the BBC broadcast the original as 50i !)

    I'm a great fan of 50 'images' per second, whether those are 'frames' or 'fields'.

    Not everyone agrees of course....
     
  19. rogs

    rogs
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    I think the perceived sense of judder can be confusing. These two 5 second clips:

    www.jp137.com/lvs/sk25.mp4
    www.jp137.com/lvs/sk50.mp4

    are identical apart from the frame rate. One is 25p the other 50p. They are not (HD (obviously!).
    In both clips the skaters movement appears 'smooth'.. No ' judder' in either clip on that front.
    Except of course there's actually very little 'movement' by the skaters, from a video point of view --
    -- and they are skating against the 'consistent' background of the ice. They look fine in both clips.
    The lines on the ice however (at the end of the clip) look very different at 50p. You can see them clearly as they pass under the skaters. In the 25p clip, those same lines are just a messy blur.
    Does it matter?..... well that's the point. If you just watch the skaters, you wouldn't care. But the background movement can be very 'juddery' at 25p - if that's important to you....
    (Which, I'm guessing, is probably why the BBC broadcast the original as 50i !)

    I'm a great fan of 50 'images' per second, whether those are 'frames' or 'fields'.

    Not everyone agrees of course....
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  20. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    Well i have always use 25P since the first camcorder i owned gave me the option over interlaced 50i,it has always played fine on all my tvs .and any DVDs if i have made them for others,The HV30 fashion show was 25P,no complaints from any of the 100 plus sold for the charity,the HV30 does not need to be in cini mode to record 25P it is an option in normal video mode as well,the 25P is in a wrapper.
    Dont say to me i am the only one watching my films unless you are prepared to come and watch my Blu Rays,all play fine,on my sons new top of the range Pana tv.As i have said watching on line films for true quality assessment is pointless unless the films can be downloaded.24P is the frame rate i have had problems with,being the true cini movie mode there can be a jerky look.
    The EOS M records full HD in 1920x1080 25fps there is also a 1920x180 24 fps option plus 1280x720 50 option and 640x480 25,
    You say
    [The slow frame rate is very noticeable on those clips, not easy to watch for me sat a metre away from a 24" monitor, then just for fun the extra judder of 50 into 60Hz makes it worse, although I could switch to 50Hz on the monitor to elevate that, the 25fps judder would still be apparent]
    This is only a free low Mbps Vimeo but did you download it ?
    Downloaded even on my PCs it runs smoothly.
    33 years ago when i moved from cini up until around 2007 50i was the only option on electrical recording,interlaced was always bemused,now 50P is the big thing in camcorder recording,i find less card space and the fact editing is slower the reason i am happy with 25P and as i have said for full HD the only option with the EOS M is 25P.


    On youtube playback is worse than vimeo,nothing like the origional Mpeg4 file
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  21. chrishull3

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  22. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    Download for better than vimeo quality
    Changing light ie cloud then sun is difficult when filming subjects that dont give you time correct the white balance,i use the outdoor setting in those curcumstances,AWB can take time adjusting to different changing light on all the camcorders i have owned.


    The nesting Grebes filmed 8 days on with my HF-G30 camcorder.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2014
  23. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    As with all Vimeo best downloaded.
     
  24. M Stewart

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    Hi guys,
    Thanks for all your replies and videos etc., I bit the bullet a few days ago and ordered a used Canon Legria HF G30 from LCE, along with the DM-100 microphone. There were some courier delivery driver problems delaying delivery by one day, and so it arrived yesterday at 17.55. With an interest in filming birds, but definitely not to "pro" standards, I bought it primarily for the x20 optical zoom and am hoping that it's a decent compromise between reach and portability. It's in good condition externally, and seems to do what I was hoping for. Inevitably I've tried it out on my local duck pond and the WCML with Pendolinos streaking past at 90mph. On this simple test, it's by far the best of all my video recording devices, and I see no odd effects whatsoever.

    Off to do more tests today - and then I expect I'll be trying to decide between MP4 and AVCHD...
     
  25. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    The HF-G30 is not bad for wildlife but 20x is not great,i always use my 1.5x screw in extender to get closer and my 2x one as well,there is a 2x in cam digital extender that to be fair can used be used if realy necessary this was filmed with the 1.5x extender and some parts also the digital extender.Best downloaded.
     
  26. Terfyn

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    The simpler solution is to go for a camera with extended "intelligent" zoom. The 750 will extend the 20x optical to 50x without any loss of picture quality. Panasonic also allow 60x and 1500x, I believe the Panasonic choice of 60x is to limit the use of the zoom so picture quality is not decimated. I use the 50x limit for framing and can confirm that the picture quality remains the same throughout the range.
     
  27. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    Why i use true lossles screw in extenders if possible,only optical zooms are truely lossless,the HF-G30s 40x in cam extender only realy has noticable loss when used with external extenders like in

    For wildlife good on cam control is a must,manual focus on the lens etc.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  28. Terfyn

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    Extenders are not lossless any more than filters or other bits screwed into a lens. There will be some attenuation.
    The so called intelligent zoom used by Panasonic is engineered to use a greater part of the chip so, provided I stay within the 50x there is no picture degradation. Try it.
     
  29. chrishull3

    chrishull3
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    No i am happy with the 2320 35 equivalent mm i can get,getting into positions and having to wait at times can be monotonous but content is important.But nothing beats a good add on external lens and i am not sure about my 2x external but my expensive 1.5x TL-H58 IS lossless .
     

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