English Votes For English Laws

Rasczak

Outstanding Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2002
Messages
27,709
Reaction score
10,519
Points
6,144
Location
Warwick
Being debated today. Good or bad?
English votes for English laws plan is 'incomprehensible mess', Labour says

Personally I have to agree with the SNPs assessment that its ‘a dog’s breakfast’. What England - and more realistically the regions - should go for is regional Parliaments with the same devolved powers as Holyrood. Going for a two-tier chamber - which excludes Scots during the debate but allows them to vote in the final vote - is utterly bonkers.
 
I don't think it is ideal - the best solution would be a proper federal settlement for all parts of the UK, with equal powers in each country.

Regional parliaments would be a terrible idea. It's bad enough having the Scots feeling put upon / entitled, it would be worse to encourage regionalism in the rest of the UK.

However the proposal is better than what we have now.
 
I don't think it is ideal - the best solution would be a proper federal settlement for all parts of the UK, with equal powers in each country.

Regional parliaments would be a terrible idea. It's bad enough having the Scots feeling put upon / entitled, it would be worse to encourage regionalism in the rest of the UK.

However the proposal is better than what we have now.
I don't think there is a sense of "entitlement" from Scots. But the regional Parliament has certainly done a fair bit for quality of life and is a lot more dynamic than Westminster. Those benefits could be rolled out across the UK.

As for the proposal being better - I think it is more likely to cause fragmentation and division further injuring the UK.
 
Last edited:
Regional governments will mean they will be played off against each other.
Already happening so makes sense to level the playing field.
 
As for the proposal being better - I think it is more likely to cause fragmentation and division further injuring the UK.

Really? And for how long do you think the English will accept being marginalised as we are now? A Scots vote is worth more than mine, they get more public spending per head, and a host of other benefits that are ultimately funded by the UK such as free prescriptions.

It is only because English nationalism as a movement seems to be associated with the likes of the BNP that we haven't (yet) seen an English version of the SNP. If there was such a viable party, I'd certainly consider voting for it. This article echoes a lot of my thinking on it.

What is English nationalism ... and is it on the rise? (From Herald Scotland)

I think it is wrong to believe the status quo will keep the English happy.
 
England just needs to be on an equal footing with Scotland, Wales and NI by having its own assembly - I'm unsure as to what the difficulty they have in seeing this is.

I would vote against having regional assemblies in England if the question was asked, I personally think it would cause more harm than good

This idea does seem crazy though
 
Regional assemblies:

BBC NEWS | Politics | North East votes 'no' to assembly

The total number of people voting against the plans was 696,519 (78%), while 197,310 (22%) voted in favour.

"Resounding no" etc.

If you read the link most in England were happy to see the back of Scotland.

Who most wants independence for Scotland? The English… | Andrew Rawnsley

Another recent poll, by YouGov for Prospect, indicated that only a small minority of English voters would be all that bothered by a break-up. Most were relaxed, and rather a lot positively embraced, the idea of a divorce. By 52% to 32%, English voters favoured either maximum devolution for Scotland or independence – a bigger margin of support for the SNP prospectus than there is in Scotland itself.

Research by the
Institute for Public Policy Research suggests some reasons why. The number of people in England identifying themselves as English rather than British is rising and with it is a growing feeling that England gets a raw deal from the Union. There is English irritation about the financial deal that allocates more public spending per head to Scotland. In my experience, a sense of unfairness is felt most keenly in northern England where people look on with understandable annoyance at the superior political clout and more generous cash transfers enjoyed by the Scots.

As the debate about the Union grows more intense, an English resentment that has simmered for years could well come to a boiling point. The YouGov poll found the English feel that the Scots get a better deal from the Union by a whopping margin of 11 to 1.
 
It is only because English nationalism as a movement seems to be associated with the likes of the BNP that we haven't (yet) seen an English version of the SNP.

BBC touts similar.

BBC News - England - Profile

Second, Scottish and Welsh nationalist movements have long been part of the political mainstream, and are seen as champions of legitimate historical national identities. English nationalism, on the other hand, has often been portrayed as a reaction to non-white immigration and seen as largely the province of the far right. But there is a constitutional nationalist movement that focuses on the English parliament issue.

This makes public discussion of English identity politics difficult, as politicians on the left and right have discovered, as accusations of racism and appeasement of minorities are exchanged.
 
What is English nationalism ... and is it on the rise? (From Herald Scotland)

I think it is wrong to believe the status quo will keep the English happy.

Who most wants independence for Scotland? The English… | Andrew Rawnsley

There are roughly 5.5 million Scots, which is rather less than the population of London.

The problem isn't London. London is a global city generating wealth. The problem is Scotland which gets a lot more money per head and has a lot of influence on the UK.

There's far more Scottish MPs than there are London ones.
 
Really? And for how long do you think the English will accept being marginalised as we are now? A Scots vote is worth more than mine, they get more public spending per head, and a host of other benefits that are ultimately funded by the UK such as free prescriptions.
In all honesty I don't think most English really care. I certainly don't (although admittedly I am resident/vote in Scotland). When you have a nation of 50million against 5million the larger always wins (please, no references to battles/football/rugby etc - I am talking figuratively).

It is only because English nationalism as a movement seems to be associated with the likes of the BNP that we haven't (yet) seen an English version of the SNP. If there was such a viable party, I'd certainly consider voting for it. This article echoes a lot of my thinking on it.
However, there isn't. Nor is there any prospect IMHO. Let's be honest - if you see someone flying a St George flag outside of a football stadium, one will normally give such individuals a wide berth.
 
However, there isn't. Nor is there any prospect IMHO. Let's be honest - if you see someone flying a St George flag outside of a football stadium, one will normally give such individuals a wide berth.

Really? I wouldn't. I think patriotism can be a positive thing. And I'm not sure why it is OK for the Scots, but not the English? If someone is displaying a St George's flag then I'm not going to be making an assumption they are racist. In my view, it is those holding those default views that are somewhat racist.

And I agree there isn't much prospect at the moment for a serious English Nationalist party. But there certainly seems to be a groundswell of support for the English to have parity with the Scots. I know I'd seriously consider any party that offered it, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Where voters go, politicians will eventually follow. It seems more likely that an existing party may take on the mantle and push for a proper federal settlement if not outright independence for all nations.

If the Conservatives continue to be marginalised outside England, how long until they bite the bullet and become an English nationalist party? Being able to jettison the burden of Wales and Northern Ireland would provide an instant economic win, and given England is overwhelmingly Conservative they'd find it much easier to win elections.
 
However, I think it is perfectly fair to say the adoption of the St. George Flag as their emblem by clearly racist "Nationalist" groups has tarnished it's use as a symbol of simple national pride.
An-English-Defence-League-012.jpg
 
Tarnished, but not to the extent that legitimate patriotism using it should be discouraged.

Don't let the racists hijack it. All the more reason the flag should be used in a positive way.
 
Well, MPs have voted for it:
MPs back English-only votes as SNP warns it will trigger 'end of union'

The SNP have claimed this is a 'significant change' so we might now be looking at a re-run of the referendum post the 2016 elections :(

To be honest- fudge 'em.
I'm fundamentally pro union but not at any cost. If Scotland wishes to enact an authoritarian wet dream where any remote criticism of the government is somehow unpatriotic and the state is the font of all things, I'm cool with that. As I type a barrel of Brent Crude is trading at $48.21, I'm sure the SNP will do famously.
 
This kicked off with devolution. The SNP wanted it both ways. Control of Scotland and control of the UK. When devolution first happened many said it would be the end of the Union. Then the SNP pushed for a referendum. Labour has tried to dilute English Nationalism by pushing for regionalism.

Labour allowed devolution, The Conservatives allowed a referendum.

Now the SNP are scared and rightly so. The next step will be a confident, devolved England using its vastly greater size and commercial muscle to work as shamelessly for English interests as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland currently do for their own. England doesn't need the rest of the UK as much as the rest of the UK needs England.
 
Well said Sonic.

It is hypocritical beyond belief for the SNP to be against England having more say over laws affecting only them. Of course it is just another of their tactics to drive a wedge into the union.

I was previously pro-union, but I'm becoming more convinced we should cut Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland adrift and see how they get on paying for their own socialist wet dreams.
 
English votes: A beginner's guide - BBC News

In exchange, the government wants to see more directly-elected mayors in charge of these areas. But creating extra tiers of government has not proved popular with the English public. When 10 cities held a referendum on whether they wanted elected mayors in 2012, only one - Bristol - voted in favour. Similarly, voters in north-east England rejected setting up a regional assembly by 78% to 22% in 2004.
 
This kicked off with devolution. The SNP wanted it both ways. Control of Scotland and control of the UK. When devolution first happened many said it would be the end of the Union. Then the SNP pushed for a referendum. Labour has tried to dilute English Nationalism by pushing for regionalism.

Labour allowed devolution, The Conservatives allowed a referendum.

Now the SNP are scared and rightly so. The next step will be a confident, devolved England using its vastly greater size and commercial muscle to work as shamelessly for English interests as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland currently do for their own. England doesn't need the rest of the UK as much as the rest of the UK needs England.

I disagree.

Scottish people have an essence missing in the English - a gravitas that adds weight to any organisation. Examine any commercial or public organisation in England and note how many Scots are in key positions. Not only that, note how well the job is done.

The political situation highlights the above: the Scots have a lot of clout for a minority and boy, don't they use it well.

By all means talk, but don't pull the plug.
 
A lot of them leave Scotland to work elsewhere. You think that might stop if there was no union?

Besides it's usually Scotland that's vocal about leaving. They want another referendum. They wanted devolution. They got it. If they want to go on their own how do we stop them?
 
Last edited:

The latest video from AVForums

Is 4K Blu-ray Worth It?
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Back
Top Bottom