Enforced room layout change = no more subs… Speaker options….

DT79

Distinguished Member
Long rambling post alert! See signature for kit.

Well this past week has brought with it the horrible realisation that I’m getting old and even just sitting and listening to music is not immune from my decrepitude.

My lower back has long troubled me, but whereas for many years it would be a case of doing too much would make it hurt, then I’d take it easy for a few days and it would get better, over the past couple of years it has just deteriorated to the point where it’s more or less constantly niggling me and I struggle to sit in any kind of seat for more than about half an hour. Unfortunately the sofa in front of my speakers in the lounge was just no good for me. There is another in the room and swapping them round was an option but whilst the other one is better, it would only buy a little more time before the discomfort kicks in each time I sit there and it would still be a non starter if I’m already suffering.

I am seeing the doctor and hoping that there can be some effective treatment, but that’s going to take time, and I expect there will always be some element of ongoing management of the situation (also been seeing a Chiro regularly for ages) and sitting in the most comfortable seat possible is obviously a no-brainer.

Then this week for no reason that I can discern it got severely bad, worse than ever before, and I couldn’t even contemplate sitting on that sofa for 3 days and I just thought enough’s enough.

So the sofa has moved to the window bay to make way for a comfortable chair, thereby displacing my subwoofers. We found a s/h Stressless chair locally and that is now in situ in my main listening position, which makes a huge difference to my comfort.

TL/DR: bad back; sofa moved to front wall between speakers thereby displacing subs, to make way for comfortable chair in MLP.

Right now I’m slumming it with ‘just’ my Special Forties :D (I do realise how ridiculous that statement is). I’ve re-run RoomPerfect and to be fair it sounds great. The bass is even one of their strengths and if I hadn’t heard what it could be like with perfectly integrated stereo subs I’d be quite content. Even my wife commented the same. But I have heard what’s possible and I’m totally addicated to this game, so the “Hmm I wonder…” has already started. I could try to fit one or both of the subs in the room somewhere, but as you can see from the ‘after’ photo It’s not going to be anywhere on the front wall and I don’t think I’ll be happy with them sub-optimally shoe-horned in just or the sake of it. I’m wondering what options I might have for a stereo pair with deeper bass…

I reckon I could rustle up £5k including the proceeds of selling the S40s and the BW-2s, or maybe £3.5k if I hang on to the BW-2s ‘just in case’ (there is an outside chance that we will lose one of the sofas at some point and I get the front wall back).

Stand mounts are preferred by the Interior Design Authority; wood veneer floorstanders are definitely out. I may get away with an elegant floorstander if the design/colour is right*. Don’t mind s/h.

The good thing is that in addition to the regular speaker cables, I have 75ohm coax and balanced microphone cables installed going from the Hi-Fi to each speaker position, so passive and active (whether by analogue or digital RCA, or analogue XLR) options are open to me.

TL/DR 2: Looking for stereo speakers with even better bass than Special 40s for up to £5k, new or s/h.

What would you do? Advice and suggestions please :). Looking on eBay a few options jump out at me…

  • ex-dem Kudos Titan 505s for £5k
  • s/h Kudos Super 10 for £2k (original version not ’activateable’; could be worth a punt?)
  • s/h Dynaudio Focus 30XD for £3.5k (pretty much the same footprint as what I have now and *this is an example of an acceptable floorstander, in the grey oak finish)
  • s/h KEF Reference 3 for £4k (I think I’d get away with these because of the slim profile and silver baffle)
  • new Kudos Super 10A £4k (not sure the bass will be any deeper than the S40s)

Of those options I think the 30XDs appeal the most on paper and I could keep the BW-2s just in case, however this particular pair are collection in person from Harrogate, and driving there and back is a complete non-starter with my back.

Before:
189F9542-717C-4529-A624-9B17F815CBA9.jpeg


After:
6FC0DC0D-B65F-4578-ADEE-569FE6A819A4.jpeg


Cheers
Dan
 
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AmericanAudio

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
You could add the curve-ball GoldenEar Tritons to that option.

Rav reviews in the US but harder to find here. The 3 and above is an active speaker. With sub/LFE inputs or full range speaker level and let the electronics sort it out.

Hope you find your solution.
 
Last edited:

DT79

Distinguished Member
You could add the curve-ball GoldenEar Tritons to that option.

Rav reviews in the US but harder to find here. They are the 3 and above is an active speaker. With sub/LFE inputs or full range speaker level and let the electronics sort it out.

Hope you find your solution.
Thanks, those do indeed look like very interesting option!
 

AmericanAudio

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
I like them so much my personal lounge has is a full 5.2.2 system, using the previous gen Triton2's as Front L & R's.

With the sub being built in I think they make a perfect living / cinema room option.

They were also the catalyst to creating the AmericanAudioCo.UK brand because they were so hard to find here in the UK.

They are now owed by the Audio Quest Group, so again providence and support is exceptional.

Chris. AAC
 
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DT79

Distinguished Member
I like them so much my personal lounge has is a full 5.2.2 system, using the previous gen Triton2's as Front L & R's.

With the sub being built in I think they make a perfect living / cinema room option.

They were also the catalyst to creating the AmericanAudioCo.UK brand because they were so hard to find here in the UK.

They are now owed by the Audio Quest Group, so again providence and support is exceptional.

Chris. AAC
Do you just feed them a full range speaker level signal, or do they have a separate line level sub input?

Edit - looked up the user guide. These look ideal for my situation….. if the boss can live with the appearance.
 
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AmericanAudio

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
They have both.

You can give them a LFE input for the sub and speaker level of the Mids and Tweets.

Or, as I do and as is recommended, feed them with a speaker level, full range (my AVR is set to Full Range and no Subs) and the active components and cross overs do the rest for you.
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
We found a s/h Stressless chair locally and that is now in situ in my main listening position, which makes a huge difference to my comfort
Love my Stressless. Best £0 I ever found on Gumtree!

Sure this is a daft question but does Room Perfect not mean you can put a sub anywhere and it'll fix it? Just my impression, can't afford it yet lol.

Mmmm Special 40s! I'm in acquisition mode but they're way beyond me, booooooo.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Love my Stressless. Best £0 I ever found on Gumtree!

Sure this is a daft question but does Room Perfect not mean you can put a sub anywhere and it'll fix it? Just my impression, can't afford it yet lol.

Mmmm Special 40s! I'm in acquisition mode but they're way beyond me, booooooo.
RoomPerfect will make the best of it from a frequency perspective and TBH it would probably be fine in the MLP, but if you put your speakers and subs in different areas in the room, then the relative distances between them will vary wildly depending on where you’re sat listening. No room correction system can deal with the relative phase effects of that.

To be honest, i may as well try it. Sometime this week I’ll give it a bash.
 
Last edited:

DT79

Distinguished Member
They have both.

You can give them a LFE input for the sub and speaker level of the Mids and Tweets.

Or, as I do and as is recommended, feed them with a speaker level, full range (my AVR is set to Full Range and no Subs) and the active components and cross overs do the rest for you.
They look ideal, but I just looked at the dimensions and they’re pretty big…. not a problem for me, but I think the boss will disagree. I will float it though….
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
RoomPerfect will make the best of it from a frequency perspective and TBH it would probably be fine in the MLP, but if you put your speakers and subs in different areas in the room, then the relative distances between them will be very wildly depending on where you’re sat listening. No room correction system can deal with the relative phase effects of that.

To be honest, i may as well try it. Sometime this week I’ll give it a bash.

Excellent :) Try it by ear too, you might be surprised.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Long rambling post alert! See signature for kit.

Well this past week has brought with it the horrible realisation that I’m getting old and even just sitting and listening to music is not immune from my decrepitude.

My lower back has long troubled me, but whereas for many years it would be a case of doing too much would make it hurt, then I’d take it easy for a few days and it would get better, over the past couple of years it has just deteriorated to the point where it’s more or less constantly niggling me and I struggle to sit in any kind of seat for more than about half an hour. Unfortunately the sofa in front of my speakers in the lounge was just no good for me. There is another in the room and swapping them round was an option but whilst the other one is better, it would only buy a little more time before the discomfort kicks in each time I sit there and it would still be a non starter if I’m already suffering.

I am seeing the doctor and hoping that there can be some effective treatment, but that’s going to take time, and I expect there will always be some element of ongoing management of the situation (also been seeing a Chiro regularly for ages) and sitting in the most comfortable seat possible is obviously a no-brainer.

Then this week for no reason that I can discern it got severely bad, worse than ever before, and I couldn’t even contemplate sitting on that sofa for 3 days and I just thought enough’s enough.

So the sofa has moved to the window bay to make way for a comfortable chair, thereby displacing my subwoofers. We found a s/h Stressless chair locally and that is now in situ in my main listening position, which makes a huge difference to my comfort.

TL/DR: bad back; sofa moved to front wall between speakers thereby displacing subs, to make way for comfortable chair in MLP.

Right now I’m slumming it with ‘just’ my Special Forties :D (I do realise how ridiculous that statement is). I’ve re-run RoomPerfect and to be fair it sounds great. The bass is even one of their strengths and if I hadn’t heard what it could be like with perfectly integrated stereo subs I’d be quite content. Even my wife commented the same. But I have heard what’s possible and I’m totally addicated to this game, so the “Hmm I wonder…” has already started. I could try to fit one or both of the subs in the room somewhere, but as you can see from the ‘after’ photo It’s not going to be anywhere on the front wall and I don’t think I’ll be happy with them sub-optimally shoe-horned in just or the sake of it. I’m wondering what options I might have for a stereo pair with deeper bass…

I reckon I could rustle up £5k including the proceeds of selling the S40s and the BW-2s, or maybe £3.5k if I hang on to the BW-2s ‘just in case’ (there is an outside chance that we will lose one of the sofas at some point and I get the front wall back).

Stand mounts are preferred by the Interior Design Authority; wood veneer floorstanders are definitely out. I may get away with an elegant floorstander if the design/colour is right*. Don’t mind s/h.

The good thing is that in addition to the regular speaker cables, I have 75ohm coax and balanced microphone cables installed going from the Hi-Fi to each speaker position, so passive and active (whether by analogue or digital RCA, or analogue XLR) options are open to me.

TL/DR 2: Looking for stereo speakers with even better bass than Special 40s for up to £5k, new or s/h.

What would you do? Advice and suggestions please :). Looking on eBay a few options jump out at me…

  • ex-dem Kudos Titan 505s for £5k
  • s/h Kudos Super 10 for £2k (original version not ’activateable’; could be worth a punt?)
  • s/h Dynaudio Focus 30XD for £3.5k (pretty much the same footprint as what I have now and *this is an example of an acceptable floorstander, in the grey oak finish)
  • s/h KEF Reference 3 for £4k (I think I’d get away with these because of the slim profile and silver baffle)
  • new Kudos Super 10A £4k (not sure the bass will be any deeper than the S40s)

Of those options I think the 30XDs appeal the most on paper and I could keep the BW-2s just in case, however this particular pair are collection in person from Harrogate, and driving there and back is a complete non-starter with my back.

Before:
View attachment 1614071

After:
View attachment 1614074

Cheers
Dan

Hi Dan,

First, sorry to hear about your back issues and hope you can get it resolved. Have some similar issues myself, so fully understand.

Looking at your before and after pics, a coupe of questions come to mind.....

1. Won't the BW2's fit at angle in the bay window by the sides of the sofa?

2. Could the Dynaudios be brought slightly more forward into the room to accommodate the BW2's?

3. If you do have to change the speakers, is a floor stander design really an option as the bass drivers of many are quite often lower than a stand mount design and the arms of the left hand settee may well block the output signal slightly?

Just some thoughts and they may well be just stupid ones.

Steve
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Hi Dan,

First, sorry to hear about your back issues and hope you can get it resolved. Have some similar issues myself, so fully understand.

Looking at your before and after pics, a coupe of questions come to mind.....

1. Won't the BW2's fit at angle in the bay window by the sides of the sofa?

2. Could the Dynaudios be brought slightly more forward into the room to accommodate the BW2's?

3. If you do have to change the speakers, is a floor stander design really an option as the bass drivers of many are quite often lower than a stand mount design and the arms of the left hand settee may well block the output signal slightly?

Just some thoughts and they may well be just stupid ones.

Steve
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply and good wishes. Your thoughts are never stupid, they are always very well informed In my experience.

As per the photo, I think your points 1 & 2 would have to be combined together in order to place the subs against the returns of the bay window. They would be firing diagonally into the sides of the sofa at close range and an imaginary straight line from each would cross just in front of the MLP, to give an idea of the relative angle.

Do you think that could work?

In terms of point 3, I think you are right. If there was a mid/bass driver too low down on the chosen floorstanders it would be a obscured by the arm of the left hand sofa to a problematic degree.

42DEAFD8-70F6-4E46-BAF1-D4CF83B93522.jpeg
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply and good wishes. Your thoughts are never stupid, they are always very well informed In my experience.

As per the photo, I think your points 1 & 2 would have to be combined together in order to place the subs against the returns of the bay window. They would be firing diagonally into the sides of the sofa at close range and an imaginary straight line from each would cross just in front of the MLP, to give an idea of the relative angle.

Do you think that could work?

In terms of point 3, I think you are right. If there was a mid/bass driver too low down on the chosen floorstanders it would be a secured by the arm of the left hand sofa to a problematic degree.

View attachment 1614306

It's always hard to judge angles and available space from photos Dan (at least it is for me), but it does look to me as if at least one BW2 would fit on the diagonal.

Also, don't dismiss putting the BW2s (or an alternative sub design elsewhere in the room). Don't know if you've ever visited Rob at Gecko, but in one of his stereo demo rooms, he has a M&K X12 sub placed at the rear of the room behind the sofa (and therefore the MLP), but you would never guess that it was in that position as all bass sounds like it's coming from the in-wall M&K speakers in the front of the room. Definitely might be worth trying the BW2s in different room positions as RP may have a real benefit in this circumstance.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
It's always hard to judge angles and available space from photos Dan (at least it is for me), but it does look to me as if at least one BW2 would fit on the diagonal.

Also, don't dismiss putting the BW2s (or an alternative sub design elsewhere in the room). Don't know if you've ever visited Rob at Gecko, but in one of his stereo demo rooms, he has a M&K X12 sub placed at the rear of the room behind the sofa (and therefore the MLP), but you would never guess that it was in that position as all bass sounds like it's coming from the in-wall M&K speakers in the front of the room. Definitely might be worth trying the BW2s in different room positions as RP may have a real benefit in this circumstance.
Yes, if I moved each speaker forward a touch, I think there would be room for a BW-2 on the diagonal on each side. I guess I just assumed they’d be too close to the sofa In those positions. The front corner closest to the windows of each (i.e. the front right corner of the one on the left hand side and front left corner of the one on the right hand side) will be practically (or perhaps actually) touching the side of the sofa.

It will be possible to try the subs against the rear wall, either side of the MLP.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Yes, if I moved each speaker forward a touch, I think there would be room for a BW-2 on the diagonal on each side. I guess I just assumed they’d be too close to the sofa In those positions. The front corner closest to the windows of each (i.e. the front right corner of the one on the left hand side and front left corner of the one on the right hand side) will be practically (or perhaps actually) touching the side of the sofa.

It will be possible to try the subs against the rear wall, either side of the MLP.

It sounds to me like you have some options to try before worrying about replacing speakers and/or subs then. Certainly more cost effective to try and given you like your existing set up so much, could be very worthwhile. :)
 

gibbsy

Moderator
We found a s/h Stressless chair locally and that is now in situ in my main listening position, which makes a huge difference to my comfort.
We have Stressless chairs, have done since around 2005 when my spinal injury started to really give me problems. Stressless chair and a good headphone system. What more could you want. ;)
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
We have Stressless chairs, have done since around 2005 when my spinal injury started to really give me problems. Stressless chair and a good headphone system. What more could you want. ;)
Yeah, they’re the way forward. Got it for £250. Will probably get it reupholstered at some point, but still a bargain. The second I sat in it, I just knew it was the answer.
 
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
Firstly, could not agree more with needing subwoofers for music. That extra bit of extension, even where I've had big speakers up front before, really makes a difference. And when it's gone it's not the same.

Secondly, off the wall comment here sorry, please make sure the medical experts blood test your vitamin D levels as part of their diagnosis. It probably isn't that. But back ache (and other muscular/joint related pains) can be a key symptom of vitamin D deficiency. For obvious reasons, the last year or so have seen a great acceleration in this country of D deficiency and the NHS don't seem to have changed their blood test policy/rules based on that.

You can get an online test sent to your home if you want to.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Firstly, could not agree more with needing subwoofers for music. That extra bit of extension, even where I've had big speakers up front before, really makes a difference. And when it's gone it's not the same.

Secondly, off the wall comment here sorry, please make sure the medical experts blood test your vitamin D levels as part of their diagnosis. It probably isn't that. But back ache (and other muscular/joint related pains) can be a key symptom of vitamin D deficiency. For obvious reasons, the last year or so have seen a great acceleration in this country of D deficiency and the NHS don't seem to have changed their blood test policy/rules based on that.

You can get an online test sent to your home if you want to.
Thanks very much for that. The doctor ordered me a blood test which I went for this morning and vitamin D is included :thumbsup:
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
That’s all a very giant pain Dan. Sorry to hear it sir, and I hope you find some magic cure 👍

In the meantime...

Have you considered these?

No idea how much they’ll sell for, but at the mo’ they are very tempting and if there’s anything to the ‘synergy’ thing then Dali and Lyngdorf do share a bit of heritage.

 
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Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
The only real problem is that well integrated subs, especially 2, are better than most floorstanders for bass, especially real depth.

And when you’re used to it, as you are, it may take a reassessment to get used to no subs at all.

Any chance you could persuade the chief living room engineer to go for a chair, or a short two seater couch in the window? Giving you space to keep the subs?
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
The only real problem is that well integrated subs, especially 2, are better than most floorstanders for bass, especially real depth.

And when you’re used to it, as you are, it may take a reassessment to get used to no subs at all.

Any chance you could persuade the chief living room engineer to go for a chair, or a short two seater couch in the window? Giving you space to keep the subs?
Indeed. I think the boss is open to getting rid of the larger grey sofa, moving the one now in the window bay to the side wall and getting something smaller in the bay, but it will be a while coming.

I’ve managed to just squeeze the subs against the bay window returns by moving the speakers forward and out a touch. Just running RP now to see if it’t work like this….
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Alright, the subs are in with not a cm to spare. Didn’t think that was going to work but got the speakers a bit further out and the RH one now obscures the TV screen a little bit if you sit in the left hand seat (as you sit) of the sofa on the left (as you look from MLP) but I can live with that and the Mrs hasn’t noticed yet.

I think this is going to work. I ran RP and forgot the change the crossover settings, so it defaulted to 200hz which is a lot higher than I’d like given the extent to which the subs are obscured by furniture and not quite pointing the right way, but still it sounds pretty damn good. I’m going to run a second speaker set-up with them crossed over at 80hz and compare, but that will have to wait for tomorrow now.

Whilst I was perfectly happy with the soundstage previously I must say I think it is slightly improved, presumably by having the speakers a touch further forward and wider apart.

Overall I think it sounds better than it did in the first place :thumbsdow :laugh:

0A520DF1-07FD-40BE-BF03-78864C6A8320.jpeg
 

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