End of minimum wage ?

karkus30

Banned
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/996...bs-or-damage-economy-Government-suggests.html

Hurray, eventually someone has begun to suspect that minimum wages, indeed any fixed price system becomes faulty if the price is set above the rate employers can afford to pay, based on market demand.

As workers pay- in all but the public sector where pay rises have been enormous- is frozen and inflation makes it ever less, then the minimum wage begins to have an impact on the economy by preventing wages falling further and employment increasing. Eventually, if the state stops its money pumping antics we might see prices fall in line with falling wages as the economy repeats itself. Just get rid of the massive state overspending, high taxation and the fudged interest rate and we can get back to making the economy better, everyone wealthier and less dependent on the state.no need to vote for massive state spending if you no longer need it.
 
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domtheone

Distinguished Member
Scrap it.

Less regulation/interferance from the state is a good thing.

Would help get a few more peeps onto the job ladder too.

As for massive state spending, high taxation and fudged interest rates all here for the rest of [-]the [/-][-]decade[/-]time.
 
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karkus30

Banned
domtheone said:
Scrap it.

Less regulation/interferance from the state is a good thing.

Would help get a few more peeps onto the job ladder too.
Ah, such wise words make me feel very happy indeed. :)
 

domtheone

Distinguished Member
Then you look at the sickening state of our country and feel sad again lol.
 

karkus30

Banned
domtheone said:
Then you look at the sickening state of our country and feel sad again lol.
Well, I don't really. I think we have a tremendous opportunity and despite some useless state interference clogging everything up. Once they go and find something more interesting to do we can get on with the proper stuff. Giving people choice on how they are educated, looked after in old age, treated when they are sick, protected from crime. Generally its all just there waiting. All that can be done is to apply steady pressure in whatever way we can until a trickle becomes a flood. Won't happen overnight, might not happen completely, but its only the application of gentle pressure that finally breaks down the barrier.
 

karkus30

Banned
BomoLad said:
Where is the evidence the minimum wage has badly impacted jobs?
Beginning to have an impact. The state pitches the minimum wage so low that it has little impact, but as wages fall in relation to prices this 'stuck' price begins to have an effect. Not unlike the benefits system which has a negative impact as the state prices the private sector out of the employment market. So, a fixed price wage-if fixed too high- prevents workers being employed. Just like any fixed price, if its too high then people don't buy.
 

simplicity96

Distinguished Member
Not to put a cat among the pigeons, but what about those that do receive minimum wage? You do realise it covers the cost of living in todays society?

What about when people get on the job ladder with these lower wage jobs, and make government unemployment figures look better, but then can't afford to live? In my area rent on a 1 bedroom flat starts at 360 a month and thats bare basic. Add all your bills/travelling expenses and a £7/800 wage is gone.

Although it could create more jobs it doesn't mean people can afford to take them.
 

sidicks

Banned
simplicity96 said:
Not to put a cat among the pigeons, but what about those that do receive minimum wage? You do realise it covers the cost of living in todays society?

What about when people get on the job ladder with these lower wage jobs, and make government unemployment figures look better, but then can't afford to live? In my area rent on a 1 bedroom flat starts at 360 a month and thats bare basic. Add all your bills/travelling expenses and a £7/800 wage is gone.

Although it could create more jobs it doesn't mean people can afford to take them.
Why can't you share accommodation to make things cheaper?
 

BISHI

Well-known Member
sidicks said:
Why can't you share accommodation to make things cheaper?
Did you see the bit about the flat being 1 bedroom..?
 

karkus30

Banned
simplicity96 said:
Not to put a cat among the pigeons, but what about those that do receive minimum wage? You do realise it covers the cost of living in todays society?

What about when people get on the job ladder with these lower wage jobs, and make government unemployment figures look better, but then can't afford to live? In my area rent on a 1 bedroom flat starts at 360 a month and thats bare basic. Add all your bills/travelling expenses and a £7/800 wage is gone.

Although it could create more jobs it doesn't mean people can afford to take them.
The problem is backwards. Businesses are ever ready to employ but can't take people on at the higher rate and are discouraged by employment legislation. Its only the state that believes it needs to prevent the fall in house prices/ fuel costs/energy bills and food. Meanwhile the private sector are gearing down and readjusting pricing to match real earnings. Part of that re-gearing is to take on more workers. Its not the businesses fault that the state has forced up prices and taxation.

So, though I appreciate, in isolation this looks like it penalises people, the reality is that it frees them to work. The minimum wage is a fairly useless piece of legislation that looks good on paper, but is ineffective when wages are higher and restrictive when wages move lower.

Finally, for most people, getting into a job is the key. Once there its likely that the experience will make the employee more attractive to other companies and if there are prospects then the employee can move to a better job. Everyone thinks of things as static, but that's not real life.
 
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D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
Did you see the bit about the flat being 1 bedroom..?
Didn't you see the bit about sharing to make it cheaper?

A 2 bedroom flat shared would be cheaper than a 1 bed flat.
 

simplicity96

Distinguished Member
Why can't you share accommodation to make things cheaper?
Because that isn't always a option. Not only that if you look at a lot if house shares they are charging similar per room. In some cases more.

Its ok having a opinion to get rid of minimum wage when you dont receive it but im sure a lot of people would disagree to it being a good idea.
 

simplicity96

Distinguished Member
Didn't you see the bit about sharing to make it cheaper?

A 2 bedroom flat shared would be cheaper than a 1 bed flat.
Why should you have to though? Whats wrong with wanting your own place?

Why should it be made impossible for someone to be able to do a simple thing like rent a place that they have to share with a stranger?
 

karkus30

Banned
simplicity96 said:
Because that isn't always a option. Not only that if you look at a lot if house shares they are charging similar per room. In some cases more.

Its ok having a opinion to get rid of minimum wage when you dont receive it but im sure a lot of people would disagree to it being a good idea.
The point isn't that you receive it, the problem is that you can't get employment because of it. I wonder how many people are actually receiving the minimum wage ? I suspect very few if any.
 

sidicks

Banned
simplicity96 said:
Why should you have to though? Whats wrong with wanting your own place?
Nothing, if you can afford it!!

simplicity96 said:
Why should it be made impossible for someone to be able to do a simple thing like rent a place that they have to share with a stranger?
Share with a friend in the same situation!
 
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Rasczak

Distinguished Member
IMHO the gulf between the rich and poor in the UK is already too wide - so binning the minimum wage is not somewhere I think we should go. And I believe it is now entrenched in EU law (including the UK following the Lisbon Treaty) so not somewhere we could go anyway.

Regardless the 'big' impact the minimum wage was going to have on jobs seems to have been an erroneous claim. A few good reports out:

http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/media/downloads/MinimumWageMaximumImpact.pdf (2012)

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/CP217.pdf (2007)

...both of which really support the success story of the minimum wage. It hasn't resulted in the massive job losses that its detractors said it would. It has significantly boosted the wages of those at the bottom of the employment ladder. It does provide an incentive for people to goto work rather than claim benefits.

The only negative impact so far has been the limited impact on employment opportunities for younger members of the workforce. But then this is mitigated by the ever increasing push to extend compulsory education into this bracket.
 

Stuey1

Well-known Member
Not to put a cat among the pigeons, but what about those that do receive minimum wage? You do realise it covers the cost of living in todays society?

What about when people get on the job ladder with these lower wage jobs, and make government unemployment figures look better, but then can't afford to live? In my area rent on a 1 bedroom flat starts at 360 a month and thats bare basic. Add all your bills/travelling expenses and a £7/800 wage is gone.

Although it could create more jobs it doesn't mean people can afford to take them.
I have highlighted the important part, everyone starts at the bottom - but too many people see it that you can get benefits that beat that bottom salary (but they don't see that you can progress through a career ladder but there isn't a benefit ladder you can progress through)

The point isn't that you receive it, the problem is that you can't get employment because of it. I wonder how many people are actually receiving the minimum wage ? I suspect very few if any.
If there are few people on minimum wage anyway, how would it help businesses if the minimum wage was scrapped? if they were strapped for cash surely they would have employees on minimum wage already :confused:
 

simplicity96

Distinguished Member
My point is minimum wage enables you to afford it. Taking it away would take the option away.

And your assuming there is the option of someone to share with. Trust me if I had to I couldn't find anyone. And im guessing there are others like me.

What im trying to say here is giving lower wages isn't all its cracked up to be. On a minimum wage you can't have luxury's like cars etc, its living and transport.

I expressed what I did to make people see it from both sides as it seems its a very one sided argument in here and im guessing all those that are saying scrap it dont see anywhere near minimum wage.

And there are a lot of jobs on minimum wage that rely on the increase each year to sustain a reasonable way of living.
 

karkus30

Banned
Stuey1 said:
I have highlighted the important part, everyone starts at the bottom - but too many people see it that you can get benefits that beat that bottom salary (but they don't see that you can progress through a career ladder but there isn't a benefit ladder you can progress through)

If there are few people on minimum wage anyway, how would it help businesses if the minimum wage was scrapped? if they were strapped for cash surely they would have employees on minimum wage already :confused:
Because to get on the ladder of employment might mean starting at a lower wage. Most employers are scared to take on an employee because of the impact on the business, the fear of being unable to sustain the employee and a worry that they will end up in court after employing a bozo who they have to sack. Its an enormous commitment because of the rules around employment law, H&S, doing the wages etc etc.

Once they have had a good experience then they stop worrying quite so much and will often welcome the employee as a virtual family member. Next they take on another, again they want low risk first until they see the benefit and then they become critical. That's how small businesses grow.

Bigger businesses are unlikely to pay below minimum wage anyway, but if they do, that's the price point at which someone will be employed. Keep putting it up when the number of customers are falling or turnover is decreasing and it becomes more likely these employees will find themselves back in the benefits line.
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
If people weren't on the minimum wage the state would have to pick up the difference with benefits.

The Conservative party argued in the 1997 election campaign the Labour's plan to introduce a minimum wage would lead to a loss of jobs. It didn't and the Conservatives changed their view after seeing the evidence. Fair play to them.

They have a minimum wage in the US, which is hardly a socialist utopia.

Steve W
 

karkus30

Banned
Pecker said:
If people weren't on the minimum wage the state would have to pick up the difference with benefits.

The Conservative party argued in the 1997 election campaign the Labour's plan to introduce a minimum wage would lead to a loss of jobs. It didn't and the Conservatives changed their view after seeing the evidence. Fair play to them.

They have a minimum wage in the US, which is hardly a socialist utopia.

Steve W
No, the state does, it doesn't have to. It isn't possible to know how many jobs have failed to be created by the minimum wage, but it was very unlikely to cause job losses when it was set so pitifully low anyway. If its such a good idea why is it not much higher and then the state won't have to pay benefits anymore. Why not £50/hr or more ? Because its clear, it would cause job losses. If that hold true then it holds true at all levels of pay, the impact just isn't so great when its derisory.
 

Stuey1

Well-known Member
Because to get on the ladder of employment might mean starting at a lower wage. Most employers are scared to take on an employee because of the impact on the business, the fear of being unable to sustain the employee and a worry that they will end up in court after employing a bozo who they have to sack. Its an enormous commitment because of the rules around employment law, H&S, doing the wages etc etc.

Once they have had a good experience then they stop worrying quite so much and will often welcome the employee as a virtual family member. Next they take on another, again they want low risk first until they see the benefit and then they become critical. That's how small businesses grow.

Bigger businesses are unlikely to pay below minimum wage anyway, but if they do, that's the price point at which someone will be employed. Keep putting it up when the number of customers are falling or turnover is decreasing and it becomes more likely these employees will find themselves back in the benefits line.
None of that to me suggest that the minimum wage causes the problem, more a problem with risk of employing someone who is useless and not being able to relieve them of their duties..
 

karkus30

Banned
Stuey1 said:
None of that to me suggest that the minimum wage causes the problem, more a problem with risk of employing someone who is useless and not being able to relieve them of their duties..
You could say that the direct cost of employment is related to the direct cost + the indirect cost of employment that's very true. Its like anyone's costs. Presumably you would buy a car on the basis of its likely cost to you and not its actual price. So, although you have made the correct assumption, it remains the case that the only way the offset that cost is to be able to negotiate the market price. So, in fact it is the minimum wage law that obstructs that occurring. You could take away all the costs and regulation for all employers, but that would just level the market. The fixed price cost of labour would then be more obvious.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
if it becomes part of Tory party policy then thats good news for Labour who will make "the living wage" a key part of their strategy.At last we shall see clear difference between the parties , one committed to greed and exploitation and the other to fairness and social justice.Bring it on I say ,hopefully the Tories will be plunged into oblivion
 

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