elliephant`s bodyparts .....

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by av curious, Jan 21, 2001.

  1. av curious

    av curious
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    ....you know the story;this ellie debate seems to revolve around the fact that all involved are looking at a different part and saying THIS is an elliephant.Meaning of course all points of view are valid just don`t forget what you are taking as your point of view could just be it`s ear or tail.Clearly not the complete picture.

    The point i`m making is this{having watched this forum for a while].But first my av cv.
    I`m certainly no expert i just want a great big high quality image that i can afford;
    so i did a bit of research and have ended up auditioning a sony d50,barco cine7 sim2 from seleco,sony w10 lcd and the debate making ellie.The crt`s gave an image quality that i was looking for,allthough i only discovered that in comparison to the lcd and dlp,the latter where impressive but didn`t cut the mustard for me,the crt image `felt`more comfortable and looked far more cinema-ish(allthough the sim2 was very impressive but had a kind of fizzy image,i`m sure there.`s a tech term.)Anyway the ellie was the last i went to see.I had decided crt was what i wanted but no way could afford the 10k plus for the d50 or the cine7,let alone the 2k stewart screen that was suggested.Oh well one day i thought,maybe a lucky scratchcard.
    I`d seen a couple of ellie ad`s but the price put me off,it`s not expensive enough i thought,the other two are load`s more, it must be crap.Then i found the forum and read of the enthusiasm this creature was generating.So i went to see it and to my disbelief and happiness was amazed at how i couldn`t subjectively say it was any less good than the `big boys`.
    The point is this ellie has pushed all to agree/disagree on what an elephant ACTUALLY is or closer to it;I thought they where 10k+,Charles was(perhaps still is)cross it only got 4stars,spectre was open to suggestions,MJ seemed just happy with his view and perhaps HCC ed` team where caught on the hop for any number of reason`s.Of course we havn`t heard from sony or barco on how the ellie is possible(i know i did)at the price,and i wonder which body part they are looking at.I apologise to those that are bored with gushing ellie fans(i am unashamedly one)but i`m happy this one came strolling by.
    Any feedback is welcomed.
    On a more serious note i would like to express my condolances to the family and friends of Bob Tomalski who recently passed away.

    Best wishes to you all.av curious.
    [This message has been edited by av curious (edited 21-01-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by av curious (edited 21-01-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by av curious (edited 29-01-2001).]
     
  2. Stuart Wright

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    The Ellie. I can understand how people might think it's too cheap and there must be a 'catch'.
    The only catch is that its highest quality input is effectively S-Video. The VGA input is fussy about what graphics cards it works with. Jon reported this in his review for HCC.
    For HTPC owners, this is a serious drawback since it's the progressive scan ability only available via RGB input which is the key to the very best picture quality in a home cinema.
    However, the quality of the line doubled s-video image from DVD is outstanding.
    I expect there are other compromises in the quality of components used in the machine compared to Barco projectors.
    If I hadn't been able to pick up a used Barco for the right price, I would be considering an Ellie.
    I expect Screens UK could sell them for a grand more and they'd still be a bargain.
    You see (charles), I'm an Ellie fan, too. But also a fan of other CRT projectors.
     
  3. av curious

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    Dear Spectre and anyone else who`s willing to give me a bit of online advice ( I`m not av curious for nothing you know).
    You said it was a catch that it`s(the ellie`s}highest quality input is effectively s-video and why is progressive scan the key to best pic`s in home cinema? particularly in regard to HTPC (what`s this?),how come it`s makes lovely images?
    As i said i`m an av tech novice and am confused as to the real world (in my terms)
    meaning of the above in respect of how the crt will or will not perform.Spectre`s post said the dvd performance of the ellie was great,this SEEMS a contradiction to the above
    So what is it that i don`t understand?

    over and out,av curious.
     
  4. RanjanB

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  5. Stuart Wright

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    A HTPC - Home Thheater PC - or I think more appropriate for the UK, Home Cinema PC or HCPC, is the way to get the best images from DVD.
    Software like Power DVD and Win DVD send the picture to your PC monitor. This runs non-interlaced - which is progressive scan. Basically the image is much higher quality than the interlaced image you get on a normal TV. If you feed this image (from the VGA output) into the RGB input of an appropriately capable TV or projector, then you get progressive scan.
    The DVD player software (Power DVD etc) actually does a better job of scaling the image to different resolutions (e.g. 800x600 and 1024x768) than some (most) stand-alone scalers.
    Also a progressive scan image is better than a line doubled image. My limited knowledge on the subject is that the DVD software gets the movie frames direct from the DVD and does a great job of producing a progressive scan output. A line doubler/tripler/quadrupler is sent an interlaced image out of the DVD player and has a more difficult job of reducing the jagglies and other artifacts.There are other issues with regard to the number of frames per second. S-video inputs feed 60 frames per second from NTSC and 50 for PAL.
    Converting the native 24 fps of region 1 DVDS into NTSC means employing 3:2 pulldown and hence you get some motion artifacts.
    The subject gets quite deep.
    But while the line doubled s-video input of the Ellie is great, it's not as good as the RGB input of graphics and data grade projectors which will display an image of varying resolutions - typically 800x600 (recommended for 7" tubed CRTs), 960x720 (a convenient multiple of the native resolution on the DVD), 1024x768 (recommended for 8" tubes) and perhaps higher. The higher spec'd projectors will do 1280x1024 and up.
    The frequency is typically set to be 72Hz (3x24fps) for region 1 DVDs and 75Hz (3x25fps) for region 2 DVDs. Multiples of the above are used when the projector can cope. 96Hz and 120Hz are popular with the high-end projector owning Americans.
    HCPCs give a better picture and more flexibility at the expense of less convenience (running Windows which crashes too regularly - aaargh).

    [This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 22-01-2001).]
     
  6. charles

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    I think there is another factor in the equation.
    The line resolution of dvd,by the time it reaches your display(crt/lcd/dlp..whatever..)is approx 500 lines(if your lucky..).
    The difference in noticable picture quality between svhs line doubled and progressive scan component is so minimal,it would only be apparent in a direct comparison between the ellie and the barco or sony-if you really looked hard for the diference.

    and we got to remember,we`re now comparing a 4k projector with projectors costing two and a half times more.

    The real question is this...is the difference-minimal though it may be,worth another 6-8k?.and the answer to that has got to be a resounding NO..

    Something interesting for you to contemplate,i used to have a Sony 1031 connected to a twinscan line doubler via rgb-and it wasn`t a patch on the picture produced by the ellie i now have..

    The trouble is,with us home cinema affecionados is that we spend so much time debating the best quality input,we forget to watch the film..lol..

    The ellie for 4k is the best picture you can get for 4k....its probably the best picture you can get upto 10k..

    but is it better than the sony crt..no its not-but then its not entitle to be,but it`ll burn any lcd/dlp out there-including the Seleco hoover ht200.
     
  7. av curious

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    Charles ,in your opinion is it the extra facilities the sony crt offers that gives it the edge on the ellie or the image quality?
    Granted it costs around 2.5x more allthough i don`t recall feeling the sony d50 was in a different class image wise at all.And apart from the ` 4 star` debate got any ideas why up `till now filmic crt`s have cost so much,
    just inevitable middle man mark-up`s or source point greed?
    Are you also saying,somewhat contrary to Spectre,that crt via pc(progressive scan)is little better than the doubled ellie or sony image?



    [This message has been edited by av curious (edited 23-01-2001).]
     
  8. RichardA

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    Charles,

    You ask whether the Barco would actually beat the Ellie. As Jon Thompson and myself did the HCC reviews for both (using the same test gear and methodology) I feel I can give a fair judgement on that - Yes the Barco is visibly better than the Ellie.

    The Barco Cine7 uses 7" CRT's, the Ellie's 6" this gives better real brightness and better colourimetry. the Barco has a much better user interface, the barco has built in auto line up and convergence (IRIS3), The Barco actually works with PC's - we were unable to get the Ellie to robustly lock up even to a laptop PC meeting the published specs.

    Does that mean I discount the Ellie - No, of course not - for £4K the Ellie is unbeatable, and probably even if it cost more, but if I could afford the Barco I would go for it. Sorry but with CRT projectors, at least, you can't beat inches. having seen 6,7,8 & 9" CRT projectors from the same manufacturer side by side fed the same source, believe me there is a difference!

    Virtually any projector in isolation can give a picture that looks fabulous, and if you can live with the limitations of that unit(or don't notice or need them) then fine - but that doesn't mean it will suit everyone.

    This whole evangelicising of the Ellie is really getting beyond a joke - Yes it is an excellent projector, but it is not perfect (and no other projector is perfect either)and making unsubstantiated claims for it does no-one any good.

    Richard Ansell
     
  9. Stuart Wright

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    uhhh

    Wrong. Using progressive scan from a PC, you can decide what resolution you want to use. My CRT receives 600 vertical lines (as the software is outputing 800x600). It could receive up to 1024.
    Wrong. (It's s-video, not s-vhs, by the way).
    The difference varies depending on the various systems. On a well set up HCPC progressive scan system vs well set up line doubled interlaced s-video fed system, I'm confident LOTS of people could tell the difference.
    You're comparing a £4k Ellie against a £13k Barco, and saying the difference in picture quality is minimal? Rediculous.
    I bet you've never even seen a CRT projected HCPC progressive scan image.
    I've never forgotten that fact - but you seem to when it's convenient.
    My point was that the VGA input is important to people using HCPCs. You're trying to argue that it doesn't matter. It does. There's no disputing that fact.
    In your opinion. Which, judging by your comments, isn't particularly well informed.
    You're trying to argue that the non-working VGA input is irrelevant. Price is not an issue, here. And the simple fact is that for HCPC users, the Ellie is NOT an option because of this flaw.
    HCPC users will be better advised to pick up a used CRT for £3k-£4k which will do what they want. You'll probably pick up on the used vs new thing, but my used high-end CRT looks better than the Ellie (yes, I've compared both), cost less and is good for another 7 years. Oh and I can play PC games on it, too.
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Gotta agree with Spectre and Richard A on the bulk of their comments, although I would add, and I'm sure Charles will.

    Charles has seen a progressive scan signal on his Ellie. His internal line doubler does exactly that, it de-interlaces all incoming signals and creates a progressive scan image. Obviously not of as a high a resolution as a HCPC, ie he has 480P for NTSC versus 600P for you.

    Interesting point that the Ellie only has 6" guns..Didn't know that. How do they get the brightness they achieve with those then?

    Gordon

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  11. charles

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    Blimey,don`t Spectre get defensive?..anyway,my point with 500 lines was real resolution-sure line doubled is more lines-but a common criticism of line doubled was that it softened the picture,you are in fact not getting any more detail from the original signal-rather you are smoothing out or interpolating the bits in between from the existing bits.

    I still maintain that the difference is minimal in relation to the expense,there are many projectors that will trounce the Sony or Barco-but then your talking mega money..

    I agree,all things being equal the sony and barco are better-they should be-but i still maintain that upto 10k the ellie is nip and tuck with the best of them-and believe me i have seen practically every projector out there..
    I am a crt fan,..but i wouldn`t spend another 6 or 7k to gain the improvements offered by the barco and the sony-if they were 6k-i`d think about it...the ellie unfortunately,has one major fault-and thats its price because unfortunately there are many people who equate lots more money with lots more improvement....when the real truth is that the level of improvement is not equal to the amount you have to spend to gain it.

    The Ellie for 4k is unbeatable-and a lot closer to the big boys than it probably-based on price deserves to be.-for that,it should have our respect..
     
  12. charles

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    p.s.

    Spectre,i notice in your comments,you seem to make a lot of inflamatory comments like;-silly,ridiculous,uuhhh,-this isn`t very moderate is it?..Can we discuss in future without such comments?..as they do not promote the best enviroment for debate..
    Thanks,
     
  13. James McHugh

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    I would like to say that the Ellie has a 7"
    tube,the same as the Cine7

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    www.screensuk.co.uk
     
  14. av curious

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    I thought they were 7"too(said the actress to the bishop).Richard?
     
  15. av curious

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    What`s this Tiberious taunts Charles(then wanted his babies),Charles vs Spectre lark all about then,where`s all the stoic emotionally muffled britishness gone these day`s?

     
  16. RichardA

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    Sorry James,

    You are quite correct the Ellie does have a full 7 inches (of CRT of course!).

    That's what comes of relying on memory for specs.(It was some time ago we did the review)

    It doesn't affect my assertion that the Barco is a better projector, and at well over double the money, it blinking well ought to be.

    But it re-inforces that at £4K the Ellie really is un-beatable.

    Sorry again to the Screens UK guys for the error!

    Richard Ansell

     
  17. GarryF

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    I remember reading the ellie can't scale 4-3 images to a 16-9 screen, has anyone out there got an ellie with 16-9 screen?

    I personally think that 16-9 has a much more "cinema feel" about it than watching a 2.35:1 on a 4:3.

    It's also nice to be able to scale a smaller image into the centre of the screen to watch VHS etc
     
  18. Mr.D

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    So whats the deal with the non-functional RGB input on the Ellie?

    Surely a tweak or two would get it operational?

    I'm not convinced I'd be particularly happy with a deinterlaced analogue s-video source. One too many ADA transforms for my liking.

    Incidentally: whats the colourspace integrity like on the deinterlacer in the ellie: ie does it posterise?
     
  19. Jagular

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    My God! Eat my shorts!
    This threads gone worldwide!
    You got Ellie in Bermuda Mr.D???
    Bart Simsons a rave here!
     
  20. charles

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    Mr d,
    The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on the other two sides...

    But seriously,The line doubler on the ellie does not appear to soften the picture in any way-in fact no negative effects...
     
  21. charles

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    Gary,
    Where did you hear this about the 16.9?
     
  22. charles

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    Mr d,
    The ellie has an internal line doubler which in essence is progressive scanning the input..
    It is personal choice i know,but i prefer this option with s-video-as when i have employed line doubling with rgb in the past,the picture has looked a little soft..
    And if you have a good comb filter in your projector the sharpness of s-video is preferable to me.
    At least this way you have progressive scanning on both pal and ntsc..
     
  23. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Charles,

    I told Garry this during the installation of a s/h NEC I sold him. I got this info from a chap who had a dem of the Ellie and wanted a 16:9 screen. He was informed by SSUK that it didn't have this capability. (to have seperate convergence memories for anamorphic, letterbox and 4:3, at both PAL and NTSC. All on a 16:9 screen)

    Gordon
     
  24. James McHugh

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    Gary,the Ellie will produce 4:3 images inside a 16:9 format if you use On-Digital or Sky-Digital.What you do is set the reciever to output 16:9 if the transmision is 4:3 then it will output that format without changing the height.Otherwise you can choose to have an electric screen and open the 4:3 image without changing the width.

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  25. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    That's what I love about the internet you are always learning new stuff. James reply seems obvious now.

    You won't be able to watch video's or 4:3 DVD's unless you take the 4:3 electric screen route of course, or are prepared to crop the top and bottom of the picture, both of which Garry was trying to avoid.

    My only concern is that this information is only partially correct. My Sky Digibox is set to 16:9. My projector has one memory bank location, anamorphic. Watching an anamorphic Sky Broadcast like BBC news24 it's usually in 16:9, except when they go to outside reporters etc when it reverts to 4:3 of the correct geometry and is inside my 16:9 screen. However, when watcing a channel that is not usually broadcast in widescreen, like SKY 1. You get small fat folk as the vertical height of the image is compressed while the picture remains full width.

    I don't think my SkyBox is faulty. Can any other users confirm this.

    Gordon

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    [This message has been edited by Gordon, StereoStereo (edited 30-01-2001).]
     
  26. Boris Blank

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    Gordon,
    There are only certain channels that broadcast in true 16:9 anamophic. Most of the time its 4:3 so no, your box ain't broke!
    Regards,
    Paul
     
  27. GarryF

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    This is quite funny, I was playing with the 16-9 setting last night and couldn't see any difference, I guess I didn't pick the right channel.

    The reason I mentioned the 16-9 limitation of the Ellie was because when I first started looking at a projector I came to the conclusion I'd much rather have a 16-9 screen compared to 4-3. If people are reading this they should be aware of the pluses and minuses of any projection system they decide to purchase.

    As an example at the weekend I hired "Stir of Echos" on DVD that was 4-3 pan & scan. While I would have preferred the widescreen version of the film it was fine watching it scaled to the 16-9 height with black bars on the sides. If I had to watch it with the tops & bottom cut off then there would have hardly been any picture left :)

    I think the Ellie is great value for money for a new projector and if the route I personally took weren’t available I would probably have gone that way. I would however have been disappointed with how it handles 16-9 and I would have been disappointed with it’s inability to accept PC input.
     
  28. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Garry,

    The sky broadcasts of Ch4 and BBC 1, 2, News24 tend to be widescreen. Oh, and Sky Movies Widescreen channel....

    Paul,

    Thanks for that. I was sure I wasn't going mad....

    Gordon

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