Electric car recommendations? Nissan Leaf?

In principle a diesel-electric hybrid is the best way to go, so long as the transmission is all-electric.

It isn't though as the premium paid to buy the car is so much that they aren't economically viable unless you do huge mileages
 
I'm really shocked there every carmaker isn't jumping in with both feet.

It's coming, the VW e-UP! is on its way VW e up! review | Auto Express

BMW has been busy too BMW i. Born Electric.

Probably more useful is the Car Magazine Long Term test Nissan Leaf EV (2011) long-term test review | Road Testing Reviews | Car Magazine Online

Some interesting innovations on the way like wireless charging - you just park the car over a pad rather than having to mess about with wires.

If I were in the market for an electric car, I'd probably wait a year or two until a better infrastructure is in place.
 
That's not exactly "both feet" though. Thise links of BMW and VW are not cars you can buy now. In particular when you think of VWs scale and model breadth it's surprising nothing on the market. The likes of GM & ford not much better.

Right now there are just not many choices if you want to buy a passenger car of this type. Especially once you think "Golf glass" and bigger.
 
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That's not exactly "both feet" though. Thise links of BMW and VW are not cars you can buy now. In particular when you think of VWs scale and model breadth it's surprising nothing on the market. The likes of GM & ford not much better.

Actually, thinking about it, they are all probably watching and waiting to see what happens before they actually release anything to market, or are hoping that the infrastructure will be much better in a couple of years which will make the job of selling the cars a lot easier.

Also, letting the early adopters pay for the development of things like wireless charging is a good idea for them.

All this makes my advice about waiting a year or two even more sensible :laugh:
 
I'll believe it when the real tests commence rather than previews masquerading as reviews, quoting Renault's figures. More to the point how practical it is on battery life to keep utilising anything like the power required in getting to 62 in just 8 seconds? Your range is going to take a hammering so that number my friend is sounding very much like a marketing gimmick to me, as they usually are whether petrol, derv, hybrid or in this case full on leccy.

At least it's got looks on it side :D Is the government offering £5k back off the list price?

The £5k grant is still available off the list price of £31k.

I don't know if doing lots of sprint starts will run down the batteries faster but the real test of an electric car is the winter, the lights demister and wipers on all the time - and if you dare the heater !

p.s. Oh yes, and batteries tend not to work as well when it is very cold.
 
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I'd probably wait a year or two until a better infrastructure is in place.

Who's going to build and pay for the infrastructure though?
Railways are a mess, roads are a mess.
Where's the money coming from to cater for a minority and 'hope' others adopt it in time?
 
Who's going to build and pay for the infrastructure though?
Railways are a mess, roads are a mess.
Where's the money coming from to cater for a minority and 'hope' others adopt it in time?

Well, the government is already subsidising the cars by £5k each and you can bet local government will continue to support the initiatives, especially with the recent swing to Labour.

As above, the likes of Nissan and Renault, (soon to be followed by VW and BMW-MINI) specifically relating to things like wireless charging and fast charging. British gas have now introduced.

British gas are introducing more home charging points and specific tariffs, so the cost of those is coming down too. Drive 1,000 miles for £5 - Travel - British Gas

Early adopters always pay a high price from petrol cars in the early 20th century when there was no infrastructure to support them, to plasma TVs in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

Electric cars will be no different. If the likes of Osamede have the means and the desire to take the plunge, then that's a good thing.
 
Still not sure of how many people will drop £31k on a 2nd car, never mind an electric £31k 2nd car ?

I'm sure the price of 2nd hand versions will depend on the cost of battery prices.
 
lovegroova said:
Actually, thinking about it, they are all probably watching and waiting to see what happens before they actually release anything to market, or are hoping that the infrastructure will be much better in a couple of years which will make the job of selling the cars a lot easier./QUOTE]No, its more like this: they are all massively invested in manufacturing fuel combustion engines. :)

So I guess no surprise they are all dragging their feet. The likes of VW-Ford-PSA are practically synounymous with diesel engines, thus the recent debacle where they've been feeding us turbo diesels under the guise of being "Eco green" despite the fact that these things spew out NOx like crazy.

It's the old story of industry gets too bogged down in old model to change when change is clearly due. They'd better hope the Chinese auto industry doesn't manage to exploit this inflection point.
 
Osamede said:
They'd better hope the Chinese auto industry doesn't manage to exploit this inflection point.

doubt it, after all they've got nothing to copy :laugh:
 
Your not going to be be able to wirelessly charge a Leaf without a major refit.

Electric power is fab but the battery technology simply isn't there yet. There's a big danger the Leaf will fail simply because of the cost and performance of the battery (judging by sales figures it is failing).

Technology is great but only if it works. Some of you might remember the Apple Newton, or the Apple QuickTake camera (my dad bought both, I reminder playing with the camera, loved the 640X480 resolution but it could only hold 8 images and the batteries died after about 30 shots!!!). Both were great ideas and their concepts have now been proven in the form of the iPad / digital cameras but both failed miserably at the time because they were released before the tech was ready (the both were released in 1994!!)

I have no doubt electric cars are the future, but the current lot been powered by
old battery tech is not the answer ( as someone have pointed out electric milk floats have been round for ages ). I use to play with electric RC cars, the way the batteries would drain under heavy load was more than annoying, I use to have to carry around 3/4 battery packs just for 1 hour of running time, and fast charging shortens the life of batteries considerably. Newer battery tech is coming but it's not ready yet and the car manufacture need to realise that, hence Jaguar looking at crazy turbines as way of providing electric power:)

Paying a few £££ as an early adopter on a TV/computer is very different from dropping £25-30k on something which is likely to be superseded very quickly!!
 
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gangzoom said:
I have no doubt electric cars are the future, but the current lot been powered by
old battery tech is not the answer ( as someone have pointed out electric milk floats have been round for ages ). ...
Paying a few £££ as an early adopter on a TV/computer is very different from dropping £25-30k on something which is likely to be superseded very quickly!!
It's heavily dependent on the specifics of costs. After the test drive I did some more calculations.

Here in Scandinavia for example petrol/diesel costs/fuel taxes are highest in Europe and on top of that car registration taxes here are astronomical. With these electric cars exempt from those taxes, it basically comes out to a discount of 33% on the leaf compared to a similar VW Golf. Or put differently the tax exemptions equal cost of 1 projected battery replacement.

In our case the economics seem to line up. But that's going to vary widely by country. So what's an "early adopter" scenario in some countries is more like straightforward a "save money, duh" case in others.

And it's mirrored in the way the car companies are approaching each country quite differently, with emphasis more in some than in others.

I've worked closely with the solar industry in the past and it was the same there: the business case really depends on use case, tax structure, local costs of various firms of fuel/power, applicable subsidies etc.
 
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gangzoom said:
I have no doubt electric cars are the future, but the current lot been powered by
old battery tech is not the answer....

Newer battery tech is coming but it's not ready yet ....

Curious to know your definition of old and new technology .....
 
Curious to know your definition of old and new technology .....

If i may be as bold as to offer a possible answer, technology is simply a meeting of ideas and know-how. Ideas are always going to come before the know-how so you try and present your idea that goes beyond anything currently available with the know-how you currently have, which makes it a compromise of new technology using old tech know-how

basically time has not elapsed sufficiently to allow the correct/best/most efficient/most practical way of realising the idea.
 
Your not going to be be able to wirelessly charge a Leaf without a major refit.

Electric power is fab but the battery technology simply isn't there yet. There's a big danger the Leaf will fail simply because of the cost and performance of the battery (judging by sales figures it is failing).

Technology is great but only if it works. Some of you might remember the Apple Newton, or the Apple QuickTake camera (my dad bought both, I reminder playing with the camera, loved the 640X480 resolution but it could only hold 8 images and the batteries died after about 30 shots!!!). Both were great ideas and their concepts have now been proven in the form of the iPad / digital cameras but both failed miserably at the time because they were released before the tech was ready (the both were released in 1994!!)

I have no doubt electric cars are the future, but the current lot been powered by
old battery tech is not the answer ( as someone have pointed out electric milk floats have been round for ages ). I use to play with electric RC cars, the way the batteries would drain under heavy load was more than annoying, I use to have to carry around 3/4 battery packs just for 1 hour of running time, and fast charging shortens the life of batteries considerably. Newer battery tech is coming but it's not ready yet and the car manufacture need to realise that, hence Jaguar looking at crazy turbines as way of providing electric power:)

Paying a few £££ as an early adopter on a TV/computer is very different from dropping £25-30k on something which is likely to be superseded very quickly!!

That's why I think it makes sense to wait a bit. The Renault offerings seem to make a lot more sense than the Leaf as you lease the battery and the prices are much lower (£13k for the Zoe, which is similar in size and price to a Clio).

Wait a bit longer and wireless charging will become standard on all electric cars, prices will come down further and battery technology will improve.

Look at the advances in combustion engine technology in the last 20 years (diesels have come from nowhere to being a larger seller than petrol, and we now have excellent hybrid cars). The rise of these has largely been driven by taxation and the power of the green lobby in the likes of the EU will ensure that electric cars receive a similar boost.
 
I think that as Osamede lives in Scandinavia that it has to be seen in a different light. I know some people who live over there and they say that the purchase tax on new cars is astonishingly high - and maybe electric cars aren't taxed as much.

That could make a big difference to the economics. :)
 
If i may be as bold as to offer a possible answer, technology is simply a meeting of ideas and know-how. Ideas are always going to come before the know-how so you try and present your idea that goes beyond anything currently available with the know-how you currently have, which makes it a compromise of new technology using old tech know-how

basically time has not elapsed sufficiently to allow the correct/best/most efficient/most practical way of realising the idea.

thanks but not quite what i am after for , for me , old tech is lead / acid , new tech is lithium ion , just wondering what gangzoom thought ....
 
thanks but not quite what i am after for , for me , old tech is lead / acid , new tech is lithium ion , just wondering what gangzoom thought ....

The leaf uses Lithium manganate as the positive electrode, and Carbon as negative electrode.

Even a quick search on Wikipdeia will tell you even by Lithium ion battery tech this is by no means "state of the art". Interestingly it also tells you Sony was first to release a commercial Lithium ion battery in...1991 so we're talking about tech which has been around for 21 years.

Research into increasing battery charge density is now coming nicely, but its going to take a while to filter through to the mass market. Startup developing new battery technology wins $12,000 in first MIT ACCELERATE contest - MIT News Office
http://www.ecomagination.com/breakthrough-technology-could-lead-to-battery-powered-future

Ofcourse the military is responsible for a lot of tech advances (computers, nuclear power, jet engines), and it appears the US military is looking into Hydrogen fuel cells as a way to powering electric motors...that is the future, not sticking heavy batteries into things :D http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/mar2012/2012-03-01-091.html
 
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What clear is that internal combustion engines will lose market share from here on out.

However, what becomes the new standard is up in the air. Theoretical "best" technologies can easily lose out to "good enough" ones, as we all see right here in the audio world.
 
What clear is that internal combustion engines will lose market share from here on out.

However, what becomes the new standard is up in the air. Theoretical "best" technologies can easily lose out to "good enough" ones, as we all see right here in the audio world.

If I recall correctly there were not many more than 2000 electric cars in total registered in the UK by July 2011, so take-up so far has been very slow, and that includes the 'G-wiz'. A lot of that will be due to the congestion charge in London - and there are now lots of ordinary cars witch are zero-rated, so I don't expect a sudden rush to buy the Nissan Loaf.

If there is a huge surge in demand then they will have to bring lots of coal-fired electricity stations back onto mainstream rather than just being fired up to meet exceptional loads.

Maybe we need to build another 6 nuclear stations in addition to the 4 already planned ? Otherwise our emissions targets will be toast. :)
 
diablo said:
If I recall correctly there were not many more than 2000 electric cars in total registered in the UK by July 2011, so take-up so far has been very slow, and that includes the 'G-wiz'. A lot of that will be due to the congestion charge in London - and there are now lots of ordinary cars witch are zero-rated, so I don't expect a sudden rush to buy the Nissan Loaf.
This is what I mean when I say it varies by country. From what I understand, Norway alone has 3x as many electric cars as the UK. And the country has only 4 million people. More interestingly, Nissan has sold more than 1000 leafs there since November 2011, making it one of the top 5 selling models in the country, electric or not.

So clearly a lot is changing. I wouldn't expect it to go back.
 
I can't see electric-only cars attracting normal people. Not until they crack the battery range, weight & cost problems anyway. They're just too expensive (even with a £5,000 taxpayer subsidy) and way too restrictive to be practical.
 
I can't see electric-only cars attracting normal people. Not until they crack the battery range, weight & cost problems anyway. They're just too expensive (even with a £5,000 taxpayer subsidy) and way too restrictive to be practical.

they just need to whack a petrol/diesel generator in the back to keep the charge topped up, which only kicks in when you start to get low on charge. All this hybrid stuff just complicates the drivetrain and you end up using the engine too much. A generator removes the worry of running out of electricity.
 

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