Education For Novice Enthusiasts In Separates/RS87's Blog

RS87

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Summary of this thread (to avoid having to read my detailed dribble below): For novices and enthusiasts to be able to build knowledge and experts to give advice and guidance on setups and how separates work and can best be combined to achieve a high level of musical fidelity on a 'reasonable' budget, starting from new and definitely considering what can be had 'used' but still modern to achieve that price/gain balance.



My Personal Detail: I'm a novice and I'd like some education from like minded and experienced AVF'ers. I've been doing my homework and will continue to do so, so this isn't a "please hand everything on a plate to me" situation but one that hopefully can engage both novices and experts without prejudice or pretentiousness.

So I've really got the bug recently about all this whole AV world since recently making a few important upgrades with my TV, receiver and the front 3 speakers (see sig). Since then, I've fallen down the rabbit hole and am on a quest to build and experience great musical sound quality in my front room.

Obviously (to the seasoned vets), the recent changes are all based on the A/V experience but it's the Hi-Fi rabbit hole that I have fallen down into. I was unaware, as a novice, that it was next to impossible to experience true high fidelity from a single AV receiver since there is far too much going on within the unit itself that it's just not possible to avoid interference in the signal, which critically degrades the audio signal. Thus, the speaker upgrades I made, made little sense, from a musical perspective, since the power to drive them and the signal to feed them is simply inadequate from an AV receiver for true musical fidelity.

So here's what I have learned recently:

- I can add a separate amp to my setup that will drive the front left and right (and sub with the right amp but that might be controversial for some) - this then creates a separate stereo setup, critical for the hi-fi experience
- A dedicated stereo amp is stripped out of all the gubbins that I have in my receiver and has minimalistic but essential components that are needed to achieve high fidelity
- In order for me to achieve the above and maintain my AV experience, I'd need to have bought the X3700H instead of the X2700H since my 'budget receiver' doesn't support Front Left & Right pre-out.
- Front L&R pre-out would go to the new amp as Power Amp Input (a specific feature not found on entry level amps either)
- New amp, for how I would like it to integrate into my AV setup, would need to have "Home Theatre By-Pass" (it has other names such as "Processor Input", "Theatre Input" etc) which means that the AV receiver and the amp would combine for my AV experience to power my 5.1.2 setup (again, far from entry level feature, in fact a fairly sparse feature, here is a link to a website that has corralled all the amplifiers with this exact feature: Amplifiers with HT-bypass - update 18. September 2020 )
- > The amp would power the front L&R on it's own with far greater efficiency and fidelity
- > The AV receiver would be freed up to power the remaining 3.1.2 and would have greater power to serve the remaining speakers.
- The amp here is assumed to be an integrated amp which means it has a preamp AND a power amp combined in one unit
- > Preamp - This is the amp that receives the source signal as a small voltage and amplifies it to a usable voltage
- > Power Amp - This takes the now usable audio signal as a voltage and amplifies its current - this is what feeds the speakers and is what creates the loudness.
- CD Transport - This is where a CD player simply reads/extracts the digital info from the disc and 'transports' it straight to the amp or DAC if an external one is added in between. It doesn't feed it through it's own DAC, it leaves it completely untouched with no processing and straight out of a digital output i.e optical or coax.

In the next year, I aim to have a separate amplifier(s), CD player (transport maybe?) and turntable.

What is critical, for me personally, is to achieve sonic excellence (clarity, detail and rhythm), not specific to a genre of music, therefore being able to be a great all-rounder, from a modern setup at a 'reasonable' price. That's an ambiguous statement I know. Let's just say we understand the entry level won't cut the mustard and the Rolls Royce is simply the best but out of reach. Where do we find a balance somewhere in between where we hit the bell curve before the price/gain-to-had becomes a law of diminishing returns, whereby you have to spend a silly amount more to achieve not much more or that a lower end system just wouldn't benefit from it?

@gibbsy and @dante01, credit goes to you both for much of the above learned, you have both been excellent with your information in several threads I have joined and seem to have similar approaches to your knowledge but articulate your views very differently. Care to share some wisdom for myself and others who maybe in the same boat or keen to learn? (I felt it best to start a new thread tailored to my own circumstance, than hijack the X2700H owners thread we've been conversing on recently about this all).

(Apologies to all if any of my terminology is wonky lol)
 
Thanks @gibbsy.

Since my post, I've been looking at some options of an integrated amp or separating the two for even less interference and greater dedicated power with a pre and power amp but then I'm getting lost in a mine field with how this could/would work with HT bypass. It seems integrated would be far simpler for me in this respect.

During this research, one other thing that keeps plaguing me is where in the chain do I focus on having the DAC? For a CD player, it'll either be built in or I get a transport but then there's possible USB and streaming to consider.

For instance, the Audiolab 6000a integrated amp has an ESS Sabre DAC ES9018, this seems well respected, then there's the latest Denon range that uses an AKM AK4458VN in the AV receiver (could I use this with the HEOS streaming then into the stereo amp via digital interconnect) or go external and have all digital go through that then into the stereo amp?

CD player with DAC?
Stereo amp with DAC?
USB and streaming DAC (possibly using AVR for this)?
External DAC?

Am I over thinking this? I know this all matters and I'm happy and have the time to consider all these factors that can affect signal and sound quality.

In my mind, a stereo amp with a great DAC seems to make sense right now, since any digital source can and should stay digital from the beginning of its path until the last moment that it needs to turn analogue and that seem like it would be in the stereo amp where the signal is converted and pushed straight to the speakers...?
 
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My amp, a Rega Elicit-R, is a bare bones analogue amp. No frills at all, what you see is what you get and I love it. My music though is very simple, I'm too old to bother with streaming and still buy those odd little silver discs. I just have a Denon SACD player direct into the Rega for all of my music and to be honest I'd have to go a long way to get a standalone DAC that would be as good as that onboard the Denon.

Get a good DAC and you will be rewarded with some excellent sound from a transport, really depends on how many boxes you want. As long as all the music sources run through the stereo amp then the surround sound can look after itself. Something like the Marantz nd8006 could serve you well and there are plenty of other options out there.

 
I've looked at multiple CD players from the lower £300 end right up to the beginning of 4 digits in cost. I have to look to the future, also consider the 4 figure systems can be had for 3 figures when bought used and also consider if i spend 'crazy' money on a component then I should look to keep that particular unit for some considerable time. Which brings me to my next point.... MQA.

Streaming is currently my primary form of listening and as such, despite my urge and will to want to get back and indulge in physical media again, streaming is the future... for better and for worse.... and now MQA seems to be the latest technology that appears to be gaining traction.

Wouldn't adding streaming components to a dedicated CD player reduce the quality of the signal inside the CD player housing and also detract resources from doing its primary function? Much like how Rega are famed for keeping all digital components free from the amps like your range topping Elixir (before the Aethos and it's digital circuitry come about)? Oh and by this point, the the system would also likely have USB with the newly updated DSD (Direct Stream Digital), again more internal components that could impact the CD players components.

The point you respectfully raised about having how many boxes I would want.... well I'm happy to have what ever is necessary as a separate in order to achieve minimal distortion/degradation. Yet, at my level and for the next several years... am I seriously, going to be able to discern the differences if I separated all these components? If not, then matching a CD player and amp may well be the way to go, for instance the Audiolabs 8300 Series or the Marantz 8000 combo or the other 5 or so brands that do competing combos but also has HT bypass/direct in (for my personal situation/setup).

Basically, I have the wife on board with this venture. I have promised her that we will spend 2021, shopping at charity shops (mainly), hunting for bargain CD's and vinyl and then spending the following Friday night sharing and finalising the musical experience together, something that will greatly be enhanced by physical media, album art/covers, inserts and often lyrics printed inside.

I know that's rather personal and open to innuendo (not intended) but I think it's important to add context to this journey and why I'm taking so much time and detail (since I don't particularly have the spare money to just go out and kit myself out with all this gear that is needed, right his minute) to get this right. Not least, it's rather enjoyable browsing the net and searching for all these different possible combinations to how I can set this up and learning how this is all going to fit together and play nicely.

(I've emboldened text to help others follow or contribute to this thread without being bored with what could be construed as "waffle" lol)
 
Great thread.. Following
 
OK, I can see where you're coming from now the aspirations you have for your set up. I'm afraid I'm going to have to jump ship on the streaming aspect as I have no involvement with that aspect at all.

You will have to get the amp right in the first place as that is going to be the beating heart of your system and is the third most important part of any set up behind the speakers and the room that they are going in. You will have to decide on a pure analogue amp such as you find from Rega, Naim or Musical Fidelity to name but a few. If you could push your budget to Lyngdorf then those amps would bring you the benefit of Room Perfect and the room isn't so much of a problem as that is basically taken care of. Plenty of owners on here to give you advice on RP.

If you want the best CD player under £2K then I highly recommend the Denon DSD 2500NE. It is simply astounding and has the ability to bring good quality redbooks to almost SACD levels of performance. Unfortunately this unit cannot be added to as there are no digital inputs on it unlike some of the Marantz players.

 
On the streaming side, I would recommend Bluesound as offering the best interface and very high sound quality without spending silly money. I've tried Yamaha's MusicCast platform, DTS Play-Fi and Denon/Marantz HEOS, but they don't offer the same flexibility as Bluesound.

Adding Bluesound to any hi-fi set-up is as simple as buying a Bluesound Node 2i for £499 (currently on offer for £399 until the end of October). This sounds excellent simply using the internal DAC and the analogue outputs to connect to even quite expensive amplification, but can also be upgraded by adding a better external DAC using the digital outputs.

Bluesound supports MQA and other hi-res streaming and includes support for Spotify Connect, Tidal (both their new Connect option and within the Bluesound app), Qobuz, internet radio amongst others. It also supports gapless playback, which means it doesn't insert additional gaps between tracks - particularly a problem on albums where the music flows across track divisions. I use a Node 2i in my main system and a PowerNode 2i upstairs and both perform flawlessly. They also work well together as a multiroom set-up.

Keeping streaming seperate from your amplifier and CD player also means that should things develop apace, beyond the scope of simply adding features via a firmware update, you only have to replace the streamer and not a more expensive component.
 
Wow, those Lyngdorf's are Rolls Royce lol. £2k for the 'entry level' amp that has HT bypass.

I touched on the fact that I could go pre-amp and power amp but at this stage and the fact I can upgrade in the future, I should focus on an integrated amp for cost and simplicity.

I've done a lot of reading since the above two replies and I think my current line of thinking is that streaming will be on the back burner, in terms of a separate. I started going down a different rabbit hole in terms of analogue and digital and transports and DACs etc but then I just thought: "this all evolved from the thought of streaming" and to that end I have the AVR that can take care of that right now and this journey is about having a great night in with physical media. Matthew, great post, thank you and it's certainly something I'll consider and use as a platform to start with when I eventually cross that bridge. But Gibbsy, what you said about the amplifier really struck a chord. So much so that I stumbled across this fantastic thread by a chap called @Numpty112233: UPDATED Denon PMA-2500NE & DCD1600NE review - a voyage of discovery… I stumbled on this by accident because I searched Denon 2500 and it ended up being the amp I clicked on and not the CD player lol.

Anyway, his setup of the Denon PMA-2500ne (integrated amp) and Denon DCD-1600ne (CD/SACD player) along with his mighty review and @gibbsy's rightful suggestion about getting the amp right first means I'm really rethinking this whole process.

I started out thinking I want to get this, that and the other by building a complete system but kind of on the cheap. Now, I'm thinking... the amp, the integral part of this stereo high fidelity build, may well be something that I'd keep for a long time, if I got it right on the first try. If I take incremental steps over several years to get to the level of the PMA-2500 then I'd have 'wasted' a fair amount of money reselling and upgrading each time.

For those thinking I'm considering spending £2,400 on a stereo amp.... NO! lol I am cautiously considering an ex display model with full warranty at circa £1500 though....! Oh no, what's happening to me, how have I justified that price to myself? Maybe I'll sleep on it and wake up and realise my OP and call it "crazy money" lol. Anyway, I haven't bought it, not would I be before xmas. Also, I'd now have to start the whole research thing again and see what stands up to this model since there's at least 10 other worthy brands that will compete with this.... and down the rabbit hole again but further still. Oh and not sure how on board the wife will be by this point lol I'll have to pass the blame onto @Numpty112233 for that one. I may well be reigned in yet.

Lest we forget, there's still the pure analogue amp route to consider before I get carried away! 🙈 :D

So, next 'simple' question is.... would one Denon remote work for all 3 units? AVR, integrated stereo amp (in stereo only mode with AVR off) and CD player if I couldn't find a better amp and CD player to compete?
 
So, next 'simple' question is.... would one Denon remote work for all 3 units? AVR, integrated stereo amp (in stereo only mode with AVR off) and CD player if I couldn't find a better amp and CD player to compete?
The remote with the 2500 CD player will work with the amp so I would imagine the amp's remote would also be inter usable. It is a very good amp.
 
The 2500 amp is extremely capable and would certainly make a strong long-term companion. If it's a bit pricey for you (as it would be for me), the PMA1600NE is considerably cheaper and offers a good percentage of that performance. Like its bigger sibling, it would hold up to the increasing exposure of several speaker upgrades without breaking into a sweat.

Of course there are other options equally worthy of exploration and that is where auditioning is essential, especially as you want to get this right first time and with a long-term view.
Around the price of the PMA1600NE, I would suggest you also explore:

Naim Nait 5si - such a stalwart that it is often at risk of being overlooked, but every time I've heard one I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

NAD C368 or C388 - off the radar for some, but I'm extremely pleased with my C368, which has replaced a Roksan K3 amp, which in turn replaced a Rega Elex-R.
 
The remote with the 2500 CD player will work with the amp so I would imagine the amp's remote would also be inter usable. It is a very good amp.

One controller for an entire setup is always favourable so this will lean on the consideration of going all Denon (or another brand if such a setup can be found with favourable reviews and prices, although Denon does seem to often offer more for the money).

The 2500 amp is extremely capable and would certainly make a strong long-term companion. If it's a bit pricey for you (as it would be for me), the PMA1600NE is considerably cheaper and offers a good percentage of that performance. Like its bigger sibling, it would hold up to the increasing exposure of several speaker upgrades without breaking into a sweat.

Of course there are other options equally worthy of exploration and that is where auditioning is essential, especially as you want to get this right first time and with a long-term view.
Around the price of the PMA1600NE, I would suggest you also explore:

Naim Nait 5si - such a stalwart that it is often at risk of being overlooked, but every time I've heard one I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

NAD C368 or C388 - off the radar for some, but I'm extremely pleased with my C368, which has replaced a Roksan K3 amp, which in turn replaced a Rega Elex-R.
The PMA 1600 doesn't have HT by-pass which I think is one of the requirements.

1604004672718.png


This tab has been permanently open! It's so helpful to my needs in looking for HT by-pass. The NAD C368 and C388 are on there so when I get home from work in the morning I'll look straight into them, thanks @matthewpiano78.
 
1604047362731.png


Ok, let's just dream until the next productive post.... Is this Technics not the most beautiful amp in existence? No HT-bypass, nor this Yamaha....

1604047469586.png
 
Hangabout o_O......!!! I'be just seen this....:eek:

1604047944605.png


The Denon PMA-2500 has some competition!!!! Time to research!

(Sorry, just trying to keep anyone involved with my train of thought and FYI the HT by-pass website shows integrated AND pre-amplifiers. For some reason, I thought their criteria was just integrated only.... that still explain my booboo about missin the S2100 off of the integrated list haha)
 
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Basically, I have the wife on board with this venture. I have promised her that we will spend 2021, shopping at charity shops (mainly), hunting for bargain CD's and vinyl and then spending the following Friday night sharing and finalising the musical experience together, something that will greatly be enhanced by physical media, album art/covers, inserts and often lyrics printed inside.

Great thread !!! I won't comment on your choice of CDP more my experiences with different media.

Got seriously back into music a while back and have bought around 70-80 vinyl albums over last 3-4 years. I probably have 150 or so CD's some of which haven't been played in years - System as signature.

You're right you can get some bargains and surprises in Charity Shops also try £ Shops our local one has masses of music from 95-05 they seem to come from Music Magpie who are the mob that offer people pennies for their collections.

However, my greatest listening pleasure and frequency has come from streaming esp since lockdown. Self and 4 mates have a daily ritual each offering up a track of the day which one of the lads logs as a Spotify playlist. We have just completed No 3 of 100 tracks along with an earlier 100 albums. I'm still listening to albums CD and vinyl but tbh there are few without filler and even in the current climate times a premium so I find my most enjoyable source to be streaming such that I may abandon my turntable upgrade.

Just a thought as your "venture" reminded me of what we're doing. Heres to many happy hours whichever you choose !!
 
Interesting thread, which has some relevance to where I'm at, so will keep an eye on this. With music being the mainstay of my systems use (>80%), I'm still trying to assess what benefits I may gain from either running all stereo through a processor with HT bypass, or selling the Audiolab monos and plugging in an integrated amp with HT bypass. I have a pretty good sound as it is, but the Arcam room correction isn't the best. Options I'm looking at are mainly the Anthem STR stereo processor, or the STR integrated or maybe the Lyngdorf 3400.
 
Keep in mind that most important are the speakers. Going all seperete when speakers are or would be a weak link should make speaker upgrade a priority.

In my experience the best approach to building music oriented system is to buy best speakers you can afford and then piece the rest of the system as needed.

Speakers are responsible for 80% of outcome IMHO. Everything else gives you the last 20% so the weight of spending should be focused on choosing the right speakers for the room and taste.
 
Sorry, been away for a few days, particularly busy juggling work and studying (part of which is electrical engineering so who knows... one day I might have a better grasp on all this power/wattage/impedance and all the other buzz words jargon nomenclature voodoo :D )

However, my greatest listening pleasure and frequency has come from streaming esp since lockdown. Self and 4 mates have a daily ritual each offering up a track of the day which one of the lads logs as a Spotify playlist. We have just completed No 3 of 100 tracks along with an earlier 100 albums. I'm still listening to albums CD and vinyl but tbh there are few without filler and even in the current climate times a premium so I find my most enjoyable source to be streaming such that I may abandon my turntable upgrade.

Just a thought as your "venture" reminded me of what we're doing. Heres to many happy hours whichever you choose !!

I love this! This is kinda how I imagined. Getting those new (old) CDs and vinyl (since we are doing the same principle but opposite media) and there would be certain songs that stand out and they are a MUST play... NOT allowed to skip track, love it. Sounds like you been making the most of lock down, this is why music is so great...brings people together... which is why it deserves the best setup one can personally afford.

We had a great streaming session the other night actually. One of the great benefits, actually the only outstanding benefit of streaming, is having silly amount of millions of tracks at your disposal. You can jump from one genre to another as your excitement and memories jump about during and after each track. You can very quickly follow and relive a vivid memory from the past when you stream music.

Interesting thread, which has some relevance to where I'm at, so will keep an eye on this. With music being the mainstay of my systems use (>80%), I'm still trying to assess what benefits I may gain from either running all stereo through a processor with HT bypass, or selling the Audiolabs Monos and plugging in an integrated amp with HT bypass. I have a pretty good sound as it is, but the Arcam room correction isn't the best. Options I'm looking at are mainly the Anthem STR stereo processor, or the STR integrated or maybe the Lyngdorf 3400.

Thanks @Hianholland. In your scenario, could you not just add the Anthem STR processor (pre-amp) to your setup?

AVR pre-out FL/R --> Anthem STR HT by-pass --> the Anthem balanced signal (XLR) into the Audiolabs monos?

If going that route then system matching to the Anthem STR Power Amp would then possibly make sense. Otherwise do away with the Audiolabs Monos altogether and 'neaten' up with just the Anthem STR Integrated. But then the debate comes back to more separates 'should' lead to less interference and more power... providing you're happy with all the extra boxes/units.

Which of the two, Anthem or Lyngdorf, you would plump for though... well that's so far from my reach lol. Rolls Royce there :D That's a fortunate conundrum to have.
 
Yep, could just add the STR pre, however like I say, I'm happy with the sound I have, just wondering if there's more to get so may look into the option of a home audition of one or two options,
cheers,
Ian
 
Had to have a chuckle on reading this

' My Personal Detail: I'm a novice and I'd like some education from like minded and experienced AVF'ers. I've been doing my homework and will continue to do so, so this isn't a "please hand everything on a plate to me" situation but one that hopefully can engage both novices and experts without prejudice or pretentiousness. '

You will get both by the bucket full on here:)

Like Gibbsy my amp is a no frills amp, does not try to be anything else but. Put a signal in, buggar about as little as possible with it, ie no tone controls, no loudness button etc, and get something out the other end which hopefully combined with a suitable pair of speakers will suit my ears. See simple is it not?
 
Yep, could just add the STR pre, however like I say, I'm happy with the sound I have, just wondering if there's more to get so may look into the option of a home audition of one or two options,
cheers,
Ian
That's the question I am looking to answer.... How far up the chain do you go before upgrades/next level models become negligible compared to what you need to spend to achieve those gains.

Do please post back here if you do manage to audition anything.

Can I ask, what system have you come from previously? When and why did you upgrade and what sort of musical gains did you get from it? (Assuming this isn't your first system of course.) The Arcam is/was a top of the range system but is an AVR, however the musical quality is highly regarded despite that fact.

Had to have a chuckle on reading this

' My Personal Detail: I'm a novice and I'd like some education from like minded and experienced AVF'ers. I've been doing my homework and will continue to do so, so this isn't a "please hand everything on a plate to me" situation but one that hopefully can engage both novices and experts without prejudice or pretentiousness. '

You will get both by the bucket full on here:)

Like Gibbsy my amp is a no frills amp, does not try to be anything else but. Put a signal in, buggar about as little as possible with it, ie no tone controls, no loudness button etc, and get something out the other end which hopefully combined with a suitable pair of speakers will suit my ears. See simple is it not?

:D

I was hoping that some long time stereo lovers would weigh in with different opinions to give me some dilemmas but they are hibernating... lol but hey, this is chugging along nicely and so far... no pretentiousness.... yet! :laugh:

Tbh, I keep flip flopping with the idea of having digital components within the unit... the Denon PMA-2500 has a feature to turn all digital signals off... pure analogue mode... which means I have the comfort of knowing the digital is there IF I should need it. Then I flop back to what you have put so 'elegantly'.... "Put a signal in, buggar about as little as possible..." which is so simple and is the purest form.


I'm currently second hand hunting right now and have been looking at:

Audiolabs 8300A
Arcam SA20
Cambridge Audio 851A
Denon PMA-2500NE
Marantz PM8006
Rega Elecit R (pronounced Reega and not Rayga - blame Sega for initially leading me down that wrong path ha)
Roksan K3
Rotel RA-1572
Yamaha A-S1xxx,2xxx,3xxx (all with beautiful [subjective] VU metres).

There are some obscure manufacturers that I have been looking at but they are either so obscure or simply maintain a high resell value so a bargain just cannot be found. The above list is by no means definitive, it's just that reading many other threads and forums suggest some of the above units have once been sold for such low prices that they then fall into, when I initially started out, what I would have termed a 'normal' price range.
 
Hi @RS87, I guess prior to the last round of 'upgrades' over the past 2 years or so I had an Anthem MRX 300 or 500 AV amp(can't remember which one), Kef iQ7 fronts, Q9c centre and iQ35 rears, Yamaha sub, music streamed from a Netgear NAS via a Sonos into the MRX.
I've had Kef speakers since a was a teenager starting with the Cresta IIs many years ago!
I guess about 3 years ago, decided I wanted to try to get more from the 2 channels as I wasn't really watching that many movies, so managed to pick up the Arcam AV950 ex demo for less than 1/3rd retail, some pristine Audiolab 8200mbs, a new kef sub and a new Emotiva BASX500 (for centre & rears).
This gave a great improvement all around, but especially with 2 channel music which is what I was aiming for.
However, it did show up the Kef iQ7s as the weak spot and I demoed a number of speakers from Kef, B&W, Dali, Focal but found the Quad Z3s most appealing and for the first time in about 30 years bought some non-Kef speakers. (I went into the demos assuming I would buy one of the Kef R floorstanders).
I also moved onto Roon this year, streaming music from the Roon nucleus, and moved away from Sonos and bought a Cocktail Audio X45 Streamer. (These more for convenience then any appreciable sound improvements).
Today I have a system that works well for me for both music and movies. I did have 5 Sonos zones and have moved away from Sonos and built some Roon endpoints around the Raspi boards which work really well for my less frequent listening areas.
 

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