Editing 4k video shot on consumer compact camera!

GunRunner

Active Member
I have just started scouring the net and reading all about video editing 4k because I have recently purchased a Sony DSC-RX100 mkIV that records 4k using the XAVC S 4K file format with the recording settings of [email protected] or [email protected]. See the following Sony link....
Sony RX100 IV - The Speed Master with memory-attached 1.0-type stacked CMOS sensor

The quality of the shots or should I say short clips (maximum 4 minutes long) is outstanding and believe it or not, is very comparable (when viewed on my home set up) to that produced by 4k (UHD) cameras on SKY Sports and also 4k (UHD) films played back from my Panasonic UHD 4k blue ray player. My setup as follows:

a. SKY Q full package.
b. Panasonic UB900 (4k UHD) Blue Ray Player
Feeding into a....
c. Denon AVR-X2200W (4k UHD) Receiver
Displaying onto....
d. Panasonic 65DX902B (4k UHD) Television

e. I have the latest HDMI cable that I plug into the outlet HDMI port on the Sony DSC-RX100 MK IV and then into the Auxiliary Port on the Denon AX-2200W Receiver. As stated above the quality shown on the Panasonic UHD is comparable to the other 4k UHD inputs.

The only problem is that in this direct display configuration as I call it, I am only watching unedited 4k clips being played back by the camera. This is not ideal and I would like to shorten/edit the clips to produce video home movies of say up to 15 minutes long. Nothing fancy, just slicing clips (basic editing) and joining them to together.

The leads me onto several questions that could lead me to my final solution. They are as follows:

Question 1. I am looking for members recommendations for a software solution (just basic with fade in/out) to edit (slice) these clips and produce a longish video to show on my TV. Anybody with experience with user level of this 4k software please post.

I have an older but still powerful PC that I can use to do this work. I do not mind upgrading it.
The specification is as follows:

Monitor 24" BenQ 241W (now 8 years old and due upgrade)
Antec 900 Nine Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case
Corsair HX 1000w ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant Power Supply
Gigabyte EX58-UD5 Intel X58 (Socket 1366) PCI-Express DDR3 Motherboard
Intel Core i7 920 2.66 Ghz Nehalem 1366 (I am now running it at 3.8 Ghz) with Akasa Nero air cooler.
G Skill 6GB NQ PC3-10666C9 1333MHz (3x2GB Triple Channel DDR3 (F3-10666CL9T-6GBNQ) RAM
nVidia KA2 GTX 460 1024mb video graphics card
DVD RAM Rewriter
Samsung EVO 850 SSD 500GB
Seagate 2 TB HD
Windows 7 pro X 64 (Full version)
RealTek High Def Audio


After asking on various enthusiast PC forums about upgrade scenarios, I get some good and some not so good responses such as increase the Hard Drive capacity to change only the processor to a Xeon W3690 Hexacore and increase the RAM. Each answer always seems plausible and in some cases would come to above £200 but not one of the subscribers is actually editing 4k clips I am producing on my camera. Please note. I do not have a budget as such, but would pay the appropriate cost to get to my final solution.

I have seen in various places including this forum that the general consensus is that you need a very high quality very fast video card to the latest standard (perhaps over £200) and a very fast multi-core CPU.

I have read recently that Intel have released Kaby Lake processors that do have HEVC/H.265 4k hardware support embedded and they have their own graphics CPU. The one that comes to mind is the i7-7567U with the Iris Plus 650 GPU. There is also the i5-7287U and i5-7267U with the Iris Plus 650.

Links....

Intel Announces 7th Gen Kaby Lake: 14nm PLUS, Six Notebook SKUs, Desktop coming in January

Intel's Kaby Lake chip is a must-have for 4K video fiends

Intel’s new Kaby Lake Core CPUs can breeze through 4K graphics in notebooks -

It is a bit early to ask if anyone has a desktop PC or workstation with the Kaby Lake CPU processor installed.

Question 2. Perhaps more hypothetical and to anyone who actually edits HEVC/H.265 4k Video clips on another lower standard PC or workstation, would there be a very large improvement going to newer motherboard standard and investing in the newer Kaby Lake processor, or are we talking about drinking a cup of coffee whilst the system is doing the work. Any inputs would be gratefully appreciated and I would consider this a brainstorming thread.

Thanks for reading.
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
Find Video Editing software that generates and uses low res proxy files for editing. On the final render (which may be very slow) the full res files are substituted. Most newer 4K editing software can do this. Plenty of free trials you can play with before purchasing.
 

dosdan

Active Member
If you can get a trial version of Vegas you can try proxy editing in it. The proxy is a lower-res, but not necessarily a smaller file-size "stand-in" for the original file. You don't see them when you browse the media directory from within Vegas. They are used when you select a Preview Quality of "Draft" or "Preview", while the originals are used for "Good" or "Best".

Creating Proxy Files for High-Definition Editing

Vegas proxies are 1280x720 XDCAM EX 35Mbps files. These may be the IMX I-frame-only (easy to edit with) version. To check whether it's All I-frames, I would need to enable proxies, load a clip and then single-step through the .sfvp0 file (the proxy extension) in a frame-reporting program e.g. VirtualDub.

35Mbps is a very high bit-rate for such low-res files so little video compression (probably All I-frame) is used and they are relatively easy to decode when playing.

Also, in the thread below, Aleksey Tarasov from Vegasaur presents 3 scripts that bind the proxy as an alternate "take" of a clip. Then, by pressing the "T" hotkey you can switch between takes on the selected clip(s):

Proxy playback - please fix!

Vegasaur offers a separate proxy builder that offers more flexibility:

Vegasaur Proxy Media Builder: Create video proxy and intermediate files in Sony Vegas Pro.

I don't need proxies as I only edit Full HD 60p on an 4-core/4-thread I5 with 16GB. Playback will stutter when I start adding in effects (sharpening, contrast, black-point, WB changing/colour-correction), pan-&-scans (digital zooming into part of a frame), fades and transitions. Switching the Preview Quality bypasses some of these and allows playback without interruption. I can also change the Preview Size: Full; Half; Quarter to reduce the playback workload.

If required, you can pre-render a critical section, either dynamically (requires RAM to be set aside) or as a pre-rendered clip on the HD. Then you can preview the section at full quality.

Dan.
 
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12harry

Distinguished Member
OP stated that he just want to perform minimum clipping - what might be called "Tidy-up" . . . . but such software is unlikely to be available as folks soon realise they need to add stills, audio and perform other "tricks" to achieve a polished result.

( I don't Edit/Use 4K, because I don't have anything that can film/edit/show it . . . . but the principles are common to HD . . . VegasPro ( now bought by Magix) was always considered an Easy-editor . . . but expect to take learning step-by-step and go through the Tutorials to learn yr way round the screen, etc. ).

OP's PC reads like it's OK, IMHO - except it may benefit from more RAM, and a second HDD to take the clips and final Renders . . . another 2Tb may do this, although 4Tb aren't that much more expensive.
Most new software Video-Editors will cope with 4k ( so they claim), but it's wise to use software that friends use, so you can get their assistance, if needed.
+Do try the 30-day Trial, to check yr hardware suits.
That's it, I guess. . . . .
Good Luck.
 

rogs

Well-known Member
There is another alternative --- convert to an intermediate format....
Makes editing much easier - even on a relatively old machine (I use an i5 with 4GB of Ram running 32 bit Windows 10.)

I converted this 4K XAVC S clip from an RX100 IV I found online to Grass Valley HQX, edited simple cuts using Virtualdub (you may need to use Avisynth for fades and dissolves, if you want to use them as well) and then exported as a High (Level 5.1) x.264 file for a high quality output file....

The intermediate files were about 4 times as big as the original - but are only temporary working files, which you can delete after the project is finished.

Nice and easy 'timeline scrubs' with the intraframe intermediate files, and best of all - all the software is free!..

Just a simple alternative option to start out, without spending out on the high power hardware and/or software required to handle XAVC S in a commercial editor...
 
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GunRunner

Active Member
Thank you everyone for your inputs so far with regards to software solutions you are using. The more people that post with their preferred options the better it is for me, so please carry on posting if you reading this thread for the first time.

I had already looked at various youtube videos on this subject before starting this thread and I have to say that I like (but not settled on) the CyberLink PowerDirector15 Ultimate program.

I am pleased to see from comments that I do not need to spend a lot of money to upgrade my hardware because the Gigabyte EX58-UD5 (v1) motherboard (flashed to latest bios F13) is man enough to do the job. It appears that increasing the RAM and perhaps having a large Hard Drive will assist me greatly. The motherboard supports the intel XEON W3690 Hexacore processor, so this might well be my processor solution. The only one thing that might need upgrading would be the GPU which is an nVidia KA2 GTX 460 (1024). I will need to test the rest of the system with my finally chosen editing software before I spend money on one.

As stated above, please keep posting. All inputs and opinions valued

Peter
 

rogs

Well-known Member
...I had already looked at various youtube videos on this subject before starting this thread and I have to say that I like (but not settled on) the CyberLink PowerDirector15 Ultimate program.

According to the specs. for that program you should have no problem importing your XAVC s footage for editing. It does appear that you don;t have that option for exporting your edited files, so you would be re-encoding to a new output format - the options for 4K seem to be ..

"▪ 2K/4K resolution: H.264 AVC, WMV, MPEG-4, MKV "

While you can be pretty sure they will look OK, it might be worth checking out the free trial first, to test that..
• the Cyberlink output encoders are OK and
• the resultant files will play OK on your Panasonic player.

I have no reason to suspect that Cyberlink outputs are not OK, but there will probably be a small drop in quality from your original XAVC s file.... Only you can decide whether that quality drop is acceptable.

Using the free software I mentioned above gives you a lot more control over the quality of your edited output files - but it can all get a bit 'techie' :) ... not necessarily what you'e looking for?..

Alternatively, you may be intending to make Blu-ray discs of course?... but that's a whole new ball game!
 

chrishull3

Well-known Member
As i said in another title Cyberlink outputs are great and Blu Rays are no problem either if the 4K xavcs file is 10OMbps the render option drops to a max of 60Mbps but the rendered files still look identical to the origional.
 
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rogs

Well-known Member
That's good to know Chris... often we read of poor quality output from editors - especially with some of the newer higher resolution files.
Sounds as if Cyberlink have got it cracked, from what you say... Dropping a 100Mbps bitrate by 40% - and still retaining a visually identical output file is very impressive.
 

chrishull3

Well-known Member
Yes there is no visible difference even playing on a large screen tv
films recorded 4k 100Mbps and rendered 4K 60mbps on the Glastonbury and 50 Mbps on Buckham fair,one strange thing previous PDs 13 and 14 had the option to render 50Mbps or 100Mbps,i used to render at 50Mbps using 13 & 14 .There is the option of rendering 4K 50p 150mbs recordings at 50P 60Mbps and that also loses no detail from my camcorder recordings.
60Mbps render
 
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GunRunner

Active Member
Thank you all. Really helpful information posted here.

As i said in another title Cyberlink outputs are great and Blu Rays are no problem either if the 4K xavcs file is 10OMbps the render option drops to a max of 60Mbps but the rendered files still look identical to the origional.

I presume you have the latest product? What file outputs are there?

I am away in the Dominican Republic until the middle of March, so I do not have the manual to hand for my Panasonic 65DX902B (4k UHD) television to look at my options for files to display and how to actually do it. That is the reason for the naive question(s) . To be honest, I have not thought the whole end process through (saving the final product to media and displaying).
 
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dosdan

Active Member
I'm a Vegas Pro 12 user. Although I don't have a 4K camcorder, (I distribute soccer match videos via the internet and 4K uploads/downloads would take a long, long time - my internet is currently 800kbps up/8Mbps down), I follow the topic to keep current. I saw this page concerning "solving" the problem of 4K XAVC S in Vegas 13: transcoding to MPEG-2!!!

Work 4K XAVC S Files in Vegas Pro 13

I didn't think MPEG-2 could handle a 3840x2160 framesize. The bitrate for 4K with MPEG-2 compression must be enormous!

Are any Vegas users editing 4K XAVC S natively, without using proxies or intermediate formats?

XAVC S is Sony's consumer 4K format. What is Panasonic using? JVC? Canon?

Dan.
 
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GunRunner

Active Member
XAVC S is Sony's consumer 4K format. What is Panasonic using? JVC? Canon?

Dan.

Reading the following links might help.

Understanding XAVC, XAVC-L, XAVC-I and XAVC-S

XAVC - Do You Know Clear about It

and.....

HD Video Converter – Convert HD/AVCHD/4K videos to MP4/AVI/MOV/WMV

Total Video Converter - Convert any video format (4K & 3D plus)

I provide the links because the latest intel chip Kaby Lake has HEVC/H.265 4k built in.

Also worth a look at.....

4K Video File Formats Roundup – Convert 4K Video to 1080p/720p HD MP4, AVI, MOV, etc.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
XAVC S is yet another Standard, presumably an attempt to reduce filesize. Yet in-hand with 4K the cost of memory is reducing, so I don't see the attraction in creating yet more confusion.
We must remember that designs are about 2-years behind . . so look-back to Memory prices and see why Sony may have thought "Punters won't buy larger Memory-cards."

If all manufacturers used the same compression; then we could use different camcorders on a single shoot - with a budget Editor. As it is, I suspect that 4K will be plagued with the same palsy that killed off 3D. It's just not worth it.

All of this makes me wonder if it's worth waiting until 2018 before "going 4K", as there are plenty of "V.Good" HD camcorders about, at fractions of their original prices - with excellent image quality . . . AND that's all we really want, isn't it?
 

GunRunner

Active Member
XAVC S is yet another Standard, presumably an attempt to reduce filesize. Yet in-hand with 4K the cost of memory is reducing, so I don't see the attraction in creating yet more confusion.
We must remember that designs are about 2-years behind . . so look-back to Memory prices and see why Sony may have thought "Punters won't buy larger Memory-cards."

If all manufacturers used the same compression; then we could use different camcorders on a single shoot - with a budget Editor. As it is, I suspect that 4K will be plagued with the same palsy that killed off 3D. It's just not worth it.

All of this makes me wonder if it's worth waiting until 2018 before "going 4K", as there are plenty of "V.Good" HD camcorders about, at fractions of their original prices - with excellent image quality . . . AND that's all we really want, isn't it?

I have to disagree entirely on the subject the subject of 4k being killed off and HD being the way to go. In fact it is looking like it is the other way round. It looks like mobile phone manufacturers are adopting the screen resolution and laptop manufacturers to.

For starters many manufacturers have stopped making HD panels, so the TV manufactures are by default making 4k UHD TVs. Also it has to be borne in mind that H265 has been created by a raft of organisations and HEVC was developed by the JCT-VC organization, a collaboration between the ISO/IEC MPEG and ITU-T VCEG. The ISO/IEC group refers to it as MPEG-H Part 2 and the ITU-T as H.265. It has been stated by some that licensing was going to be expensive and that intel would not buy into it. Well surprise surprise, the new intel Kaby Lake processors have HEVC/H265 built into them.

So in my view it is hear to stay with a vengeance. Why else would the manufactures have the coding embedded in their components to upscale HD to 4K?

HEVC

H.265, as it’s also called, was originally designed and refined by two organizations called the Video Coding Experts Group and the Moving Picture Experts Group (VCEG and MPEG, yes, the same MPEG that created the MPEG video format). The HEVC stands for High Efficiency Video Coding and the codec itself was designed to be the successor to H.264, a job for which it was approved as of April of 2013. Just like its predecessor, HEVC is usable in third party hardware and transmission systems under license, for a fee.

HEVC’s 2.65 version is now found in all name brand 4K TVs, all VOD media players designed for 4K content and is also used by all the major providers of streaming pay content for compressing their ultra HD videos before they send them out to audiences. We’re talking here about content sources like Netflix and Amazon Prime Instant Video.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT VIDEO IMAGE QUALITY!
 
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12harry

Distinguished Member
GunRunner, thanks for the Info.
You are right, in that there is commercial pressure . . . but that's what sell expensive TV's - yet there is little 4K broadcast that I can receive without a subscription . . . and many TV channels don't all have 1920 HD.
I read somewhere that to benefit from HD ( not 4K even ) you need a screen (well) over 32" - a friend has a 50" screen with HD availability and the difference switching between channels is very slight - worth having, I'll agree - but rarely does anyone notice if it's on the standard definition . . . . - as they say, Content is King.

Then we are to believe we need 4K ? -by a similar "Rule" that will be appreciated only if the screen is 32x2 ( i.e. over 64" ), and that is going to be seriously expensive......
Also, I doubt that ( other than young eyes ) can benefit from 4K on a tiny screen such as provided by 'phones. The ability of the human eye is just not there, even if the screen has the necessary pixels . . . . of course it will look better*, but that's also because colours can grade better ( Since each pixel can only be a single colour) - this could/will/may give the brain the impression it is somehow more-lifelike . . .
. . . . but IMHO it's mostly a commercial trick to boost phone-sales of what is no-longer a boom product.
Buyers of Apple haven't yet realised this; due to very effective Marketing, but I suspect, in time, they may . . . . there has to be a point where the definition is enough; so the pixels don't get in the way of content.

Back in Cine-days there were folks willing to watch Standard 8 - which was horribly grainy. - HD has come a huge way since - and no-doubt 4K and then 8K will too . . . . but my Original point was that this techno-rush gives us the possibility of well crafted HD camcorders at a small price, which have all the "essential" features we like to play with - when getting down to serious film-making.


If I buy a camcorder now, it may be 4K - but only for "future-proofing" as I will most likely be watching on HD screens. 4K content allows a degree of crop/pan while not losing HD quality....

Unless HD is in 4:2:2 or better, then it isn't really HD - don't you agree?



Good Luck.

* this is the main purpose of Up-Scaling on TV's too; as I'm sure you know.
 

GunRunner

Active Member
All you points are valid. Please come back in 3 years time and see what cameras, TVs and transmissions are being used. Note. I have a Sony DVD camcorder in the loft....nobody wants them anymore and they were used by the BBC because they were state of the art. Soon HD will go the same route.
 

Johnmcl7

Distinguished Member
I'm thinking I need to start dabbling with 4K now as I've got a 4k capable drone, a separate action camera and a couple of Sony cameras that do 4k. I'm a bit confused about software support though as I've got Vegas Pro 13 which seems to take the 4K clips from the drone without issue, what is the best render format to upload to Youtube? There are quite a few XAVC 4k render options labelled Intra, long etc. although I'm not seeing 4k options elsewhere.

John
 

dosdan

Active Member
There are quite a few XAVC 4k render options labelled Intra, long etc. although I'm not seeing 4k options elsewhere.

XAVC-S (Sony's consumer version of 4K) only uses "Long GOP" (only a small percentage of I-frames) and only comes in a MP4 container.

Intra is all I-frames, so it doesn't compress well and is enormous, but is good for editing. It's only available in XAVC, the professional version. XAVC also offers Long GOP, but all XAVC stuff comes in a MXF container.

I don't know if the Long GOP in XAVC-S is "longer" (smaller percentage of I-frames) than the Long GOP offered in XAVC. I suspect it will be, and will use higher compression to keep the bitrate lower.

XAVC also offers the 4:2:2 (less compressible) colour-space, as well as 4:2:0 (used in MP4 & JPEG).

I think XAVC might offer 10-bit, as well as 8-bit. 10-bit encoding is better for colour grading. (Less chance of posterisation when you boost luminance & colour.) Its use would increase the required bitrate (+25%?)

You can upload MXF to YT, but XAVC-S's MP4 is probably a better fit. Both container formats will be using AVC video streams.

Recommended upload encoding settings - YouTube Help

Dan.
 
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12harry

Distinguished Member
GunRunner, thanks for the extra info + Sony's PDF link ( needs sustained reading, for me )...
Does one presume that having a longer GOP is a slight disadvantage? . . . but in the Edit, the necessary data will be taken, even if the "cut" is some way from the GOP ( but then I don't write software for Editing ).... because the "cut" is an instruction, not an actual deletion-point. For PROs the use of Tape may be more of an issue . . . but then I presume their Edits are done using a HDD "Copy" from the Master-Tape.

I find it all very confusing - hopefully it will become clearer as folks get more 4K up and running.
I noticed that Sony brought out a much cheaper consumer 4K camcorder, but it does lack some good features - mainly ND filters, for shallow DoF which amateurs hold so dear.
 

next010

Distinguished Member
HEVC

H.265, as it’s also called, was originally designed and refined by two organizations called the Video Coding Experts Group and the Moving Picture Experts Group (VCEG and MPEG, yes, the same MPEG that created the MPEG video format). The HEVC stands for High Efficiency Video Coding and the codec itself was designed to be the successor to H.264, a job for which it was approved as of April of 2013. Just like its predecessor, HEVC is usable in third party hardware and transmission systems under license, for a fee.

It's actually going to get a whole lot messier, HEVC was supposed to be the next gen codec but it imploded due to greed by the various factions backing it.

The tech industry is in the process of dropping HEVC and are instead using VP9 as their interim 4K codec until they have a more long term replacement ready. The Alliance for Open Media is working on a codec called AV1 which is designed to replace H.264/H.265/VP9.

Anything you upload to Youtube at 4K gets converted into VP9, there will never be any support for HEVC ever at Youtube. Netflix & Amazon both members of AoM are also in the process of dropping HEVC.

So at some point down the road there are going to be VP9 or AV1 4K camcorders, for now nothing changes the hardware makers will still push HEVC even though it's been relegated to an offline video codec by the Internet industry.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
next010 - that's an interesting 4K argument for "waiting" - can you give some Model-Nos of Camcorders that will be affected? . . . . and do you think they can be upgraded by software-updates? . . . . Even though, once you've bought it, most Mfrs aren't too keen to "waste" money on their "past consumers".
Brand-Loyalty is a one-way Street, IMHO.

I can understand that the likes of Netflix, Ax and YouTube have an interest in delivering "Quality" - although they are greatly influenced by data-rates and file-size -as these affect Consumers' Internet connection.

For us Filmmakers, the process of "capture" and subsequent Editing, is Priority . . . since the final format can ( can it?) be arranged by the software-conversion.

To that extent, won't software Editors accept the "old-Codec" as well as whatever is the replacement?

Being able to work with Old-Codecs ( as I'm understanding), is a VERY good reason for buying software that actually runs on a PC, rather than something like the "Subscription-Model" that is able to do ONLY what the providers think is Best for Us.... and no-more, to minimise their download times, etc.
(( Although I will concede a "bright supplier" could have software "Extras" to work with many splendid older materials . . . . just as they can add Cine "Flicker" -so they should be able to get rid of it! )).

For the time-being, I'm sufficiently happy with "Good" HD" - AND must improve my technique; also provide the Editor with some "extra" good material - Cutaways and Stills (preferring to leave the camera in the car! during 2016.)....So, my earlier comments that high-quality HD camcorders are now available a good prices, still holds - and if there's a need for 4K then a modest GoPro can provide plenty of WA-shots which can be downscaled/Zoomed-in as required.

My 42" TV is 'HD-ready', but tuners only SD.
-Yet when I see TV wildlife material ( presumably Filmed in 4K ), it is stunning - My own HD material can be too . . . although the filming conditions do need to be "right" - this I blame on the Camcorder - I'm sure many Posters here, wouldn't believe for a moment that I could be responsible...?

Cheers !
 

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