Economy Claims for Plug-In Hybrids

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by nheather, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. nheather

    nheather
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    Looking to replace my company car, and fuel economy has always been a big factor for me.

    For the first time, when I look at the cars available on the Company Car List there are plenty of plug-in hybrids and these are claiming between 150-250 mpg.

    How realistic are these number - I always take manufacturers' fuel economy figures with a modicum of salt but assume that reality is in the ballpark.

    But 250mpg (Hyundai Iconiq if I recall correctly) seems unbelievable. I assuming that there is some catch, like this is for a 10 mile trip on electric only and that when I take it on a proper drive up the motorway it will be down at 40 mpg.

    And do they count electric use as zero fuel use or do they factor in an equivalent mpg for it because it isn't free just because the petrol engine is not being used.

    Anyone know how they come up with the figures.

    Cheers,

    Nigel
     
  2. Frostytouch

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    Current testing is a lab test using NEDC, loads on google about this.

    It's a 195 second cycle of engine loads using different gears, speeds, coasting; etc. Repeated 4 times giving a total of 780 seconds or 13 minutes and about 4km in total. (source wikipedia)

    The plug in hybrids give blinding results on this test as a big chunk of the test will be on pure electric power and very little petrol is therefore used.

    In reality most PHEV's have a real world electric only range of 15 to 25 miles (most quote 30). This will drop in cold weather.

    Once your battery dies, you're running a normal petrol (99% of cars) hybrid and will see normal mpg around 30 to 40 mpg.

    Best suited to people living within 20 miles of work, who could have a battery only car but need the ability to cover long distances like a regular car from time to time. Sadly company car taxation has seen loads of people get PHEV's and drive 90% of their journey on petrol with exhausted batteries.
     
  3. Stiggy

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    The numbers are almost meaningless. If like me, you commute for less distance than the battery range, the fuel consumption is zero. It all depends on your pattern of usage.
     
  4. jjgreenwood

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    I work about 6 miles from home and average about 266mpg driving on b roads in a Golf GTE. A colleague lives 60 miles from work and averages 46mpg in the same car.
     
  5. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    Seem to be getting something for nothing.

    I bet the plug-in charging is not taken into account, in which case the mpg figure has no meaning.
     
  6. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    Since it is miles travelled on one gallon of fuel as you point out that the battery effort isn't included. You do then need to add the cost of the electricity used and that will vary of course. Fairly useless test in terms of numbers that mean anything :)
     
  7. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    One thing to also consider, what we found with our 1.8 Prius. If you live in a hilly area, that underpowered petrol engine is just screaming its head off with revs. Seriously affecting the MPG, so bad for us on the same route, driver that ther was only 14 MPG between our Prius and Mercedes GLS. Which was shocking.

    When on a smooth, flat road and motorway the picture totally changed and transformed when I applied pulse-glide driving techniques. Yes the hybrid serious wins then, but not often you can truly do this in the UK in my experience.
     
  8. Phill104

    Phill104
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    I can, as I commute from Herts to Hendon every day. Aside from the hill I live on, it is almost flat the whole route. As such my Prius+ Does mid 70mpg most days, as long as I don't gun it down the motorway.

    I actually got the order forms about 2 hrs ago to replace my company car. I have a lot to consider as there are about 12 brands and all the various models they do to choose from. I've had 2 of these Prius+ now so maybe a change is in order. I'll probably stay with hybrids as they are just so easy to drive. They are however a technology designed to be stuck in traffic jams rather than enjoying the Yorkshire dales.
     
  9. jjgreenwood

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    We have a plug in unit at work so as such pay nothing for the electric part of the car.
     
  10. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    Sure. Someone else is paying for the electricity - nice one if you can get it :)

    Also if, as @Stiggy says, your journey is less than the battery range then the fuel consumption is zero. That makes the mpg totally meaningless.
     
  11. IronGiant

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    Aren't all manufacturers mpg estimates meaningless? these ones are just even more meaningless :)
     
  12. outoftheknow

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    Well technically it makes the mpg infinity :)

    It is meaningless anytime miles per gallon is applied as an outcome to a calculation where no gallons were used to move the miles. Even the 240 mpg figures on a hybrid that moves a statistically significant distance on batteries alone are actually meaningless other than as a result of a calculation applied to your own specific journey.

    'Somebody' needs to step in with some rules in working out numbers in units that make sense. A hybrid car could display the total power consumed from batteries and the total fossil fuel consumed on a journey (trip meter) Still does nothing to mean anything at any point both sources are sharing providing power.

    My other half has a hybrid Toyota Corolla (Auris?) and the fuel consumption is simply what it achieved on the same test as for fuel alone as far as I can tell. Not a plug in and electric only operation is only when it feels like it. Above car park speeds it will start the engine even if you have pressed the electric only button. If you press the accelerator hard it will start the engine even if that button is pressed.

    Or every hybrid should have forced engine only mode and test that. Actual consumption will be less but not more than the same ICE equivalent. Our 1.8 Corolla hybrid claims a touch better than 60 mpg on the Australian fuel consumption test compared to say 45 mpg for exactly the same engine with no batteries (we have one of those in the family too). None of us care what the fuel consumption is as long as it is less that the non hybrid version. We haven't chosen electric only yet but when we do the power consumption in Kw per mile (kilometres for us) in a suitable standard test is fine.

    What range as a distance the car will display (as my ICE does now) and as far as I can see they aren't overly optimistic (like official fuel consumption figures) so really why do manufacturers insist on getting all worked up over the 'official' numbers and include miles travelled where the engine wasn't using any gallons of fuel?
     
  13. Alan CD

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    Well said.

    I've been researching EVs with the view to purchasing a battery only EV next year, my research has led to the conclusion the UK is not yet ready for the battery only option. Short journeys OK-ish but a mixture of long and short (having only one car) is a problem.

    So, will now start researching hybrid EVs (without plug-in charging) so will be able to do much longer journeys without stopping. Personally I like to stop for a rest after doing 150 - 200 miles. For example Northampton to Edinburgh (about 350 miles) just one stop required for a coffee, a walk around and a wee-wee.

    On these longer journeys I would like to get over 60 mpg (real-time consumption), if a petrol hybrid can do that then I'm interested. In other words if a petrol hybrid (without plug-in charging) can match the excellent modern diesel fuel consumption - then that's what I'm after.

    I am not interested in magic or sales figures - if someone says my car can do 250 mpg I loose interest.
     
  14. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Oh gosh my Toyota Prius easily managed that. And that was a 60 reg when I bought it new. Around town not so much but on those long journeys I got 72mpg easily.

    However I'd argue that EV is an option as well for the range you are after.
     
  15. IronGiant

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    Perhaps not quite yet? Until we can guarantee that any given charging point will be working when you get there and that there isn't a queue for it; using EVs for distances that require a midway recharge is not yet ready for the masses. I can certainly envisage queuing for a charge at popular points becoming a problem as EVs become more popular unless the infrastructure improves at a faster rate than at present.
     
  16. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    What about Tesla? Granted I've never done it and don't have one, but I thought it can easily do that. Heck the range is larger than my petrol Mercedes :)
     
  17. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    I don't think Alan was looking into Tesla's so he'd be buying one that would need a recharge part way.
    YOur petrol Mercedes only takes 5 minutes to fill up and it's unlikely you'd find a services with no petrol.
    We have a 24kW Leaf and we'd need at least 3 recharges to get to Edinburgh. The Sedona would do it easily without any need to refuel.
     
  18. DOBLY

    DOBLY
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    Honda's Insight (Gen 1) of 1999-2006 could comfortably do this day-in, day-out.

    If only the current crop of Honda Hybrids were as good. Err, you can't - Honda don't sell any Hybrids in the UK at the moment except the NSX, and that won't do 60MPG.
     
  19. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    A 350 mile trip up the M1 in a Tesla is very easy. There are now so many supercharger sites up/down the M1 you can pick your stop at will. There are 3 different sites just going from Leicester down to London, with plenty more sites been added all the time. In addition Supercharger sites are FREE to use for all current Tesla owners, so the more you drive the cheaper it actually gets interms of ownership costs!!!

    With used Model S 85 costs now £40k add in autopilot tech and unlimited miles/reminder of 8 year battery/motor warranty, no services needed to maintain the warranty, if your doing long commutes reguarly and can afford the price of entry they are very good cars for the job.....By next year used prices will be £35k, which is not far off BMW 320D money, I know which car I would pick to do a long trip in.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2017
  20. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Which is exactly why I broad it up. The original post made a broad statement that I don't regard as true...Likewise I do have direct hybrid experience, I think the Prius is sh*t around a hilly town with both the engine and the electric underpowered. The Honda was even worse at the time and I cut the test drive short...However to be fair and real MPG I easily got it to average 72mpg when applying pulse and glide driving on flat motorways....
     
  21. IronGiant

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    The original post is about the true mpg of hybrids? :confused:

    Any how, while there is no doubt a Tesla would be a good choice for longer range motoring, I don't think Alan is in the market for one at the moment.
     
  22. Longy00000

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    Seems to me most of the hybrid posts come with a caveat or two....its great ...when on a flat motorway.....when in town and heavy traffic etc.
    Yes they have their place but ultimately ( as it's been mentiobed) modern diesels are just superb at mpg.
    Nissan note dci 25 mile rush hour commute each direction and 76.4mpg over the last 864 miles..jyst checked.
    Mercedes e350 44.7 for the last 4356 miles 13 mile rush hour commute in each direction. Now this is a heavy car that can push 700 miles without filling up.
    The numbers are nothing really it's about what you need the vehicle for as to whether it's viable or not and at present range and charging points are still a big put off for the vast majority
     
  23. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    I would like to purchase a Tesla if I thought the cost was worth it. After all, Tesla are doing something worthwhile and their efforts aught to be celebrated and there are some who go to great lengths to spread the word.

    Indeed, Tesla seem to have enshrouded themselves with a philanthropic fervour. Have become a shrine to which the faithful can show, in all its glory, to the prehistoric fossil-fuelled cave-dwellers.

    The problem being of course this evangelical effort to shed the light and spread the word is at the expense of those who provide the funding. At some point the economic reality will kick in, especially when the excitement and the newness of Tesla EVs begins to fade away.

    The upside of all this is that Tesla are really a company that produce battery systems and associated electronics and that, in itself, is a good strategic place to be as far as energy is concerned.
     
  24. DOBLY

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    ^ Indeed - Tesla's joined-up-thinking is to be praised. I won't go so far as to join the church though...
     

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