Dyson to make an EV

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by Squiffy, Sep 26, 2017.

  1. Squiffy

    Squiffy
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    Potentially big news, with plans to invest £2bn in this.

    Dyson to make electric cars from 2020 - Dyson to make electric cars from 2020

    Doesn't sound like a mass market car though.
     
  2. IronGiant

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    Let's hope the batteries last better than the ones in his cordless vacuums. :D
     
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  3. FishDUDE

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    Think it will suck.
     
  4. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    He promised it will not be cheap.
     
  5. Squiffy

    Squiffy
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    If it's anything like his hair dryers, the cost will be astronomical.
     
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  6. IronGiant

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    It's coming with an 80kW engine and an 800kW ventilation system :laugh:
     
  7. delanoster

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    I wonder how big the market is for very expensive electric cars actually is?

    So far Tesla have the USP of long range and good performance in their S and X models, not to mention one of the best charging networks in the world.
    Will Dyson be building an equivalent super charger network too? If not then what are they going to do to persuade potential Tesla buyers to switch brands?

    It's taken a long time and a huge amount of money for Tesla to bring their technology to a more affordable price in the Model 3, can Dyson afford to do that too I wonder?

    I like competition, but Dyson will need to produce a very desirable product if they want to recoup their £2.5billion investment. We don't need more Rolls Royce like electric car companies, we need more Ford and Vauxhall like ones for mass take up.
     
  8. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    I like it, but can’t imagine £2Bn is enough.

    I think there is room for an alternative different aspirational EV brand. The luxury car segment should have done this ages ago. And let’s face it, innovation isn’t being paid and implemented first in a Ford Fiesta.
     
  9. delanoster

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    Can a company that is known for vacuum cleaners and heaters become an aspirational car manufacturer? That's the £2bn question.

    I hope it is a success though, the more 100% EV only marques out there the better.
     
  10. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Dyson haven't got a chance, £2bn is peanuts for the amount of money you actually need to invest to get a good product.

    This year alone (2017 so far) Teslas captial spend is $1.5bn!

    Tesla, Inc.'s Capital Expenditures Are Soaring

    Nissan spent over $5bn developing the Leaf back in 2011, and that was with an established manufacturing line/knowledge on how to build a car in the first place.

    How Much Has Nissan Spent on Electric Cars? $5.6 Billion...And Counting
     
  11. lovegroova

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    There are a couple of significant differences here:

    Tesla is trying to turn itself from a small scale manufacturer into a small to medium sized manufacturer, and that is expensive (Elon's "months of hell"). Dyson is only trying to set itself up as a small scale manufacturer.

    Now that Nissan and Tesla have done much of the development work, Dyson will be able to piggy back on that research and save a great deal of development cost.
     
  12. gangzoom

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    That remain to be seen, the most important part on any EV is the battery cell chemistry and management. Both of these items are closely guarded industrial secrets, I certainly have found no public available information from Tesla or Nissan on how they actually make their cells, or regulate them.

    Lots of people make the mistake (Dyson included) of thinking building an EV is 'Easy', you just get a battery and slap on a motor/shell, job done. You can just go and buy a commercial cell and put a motor/shell on it, but I suspect what your end up it something rather disappointing compared any of the current EVs.

    A very wise person once told me 'Having a great idea is the easy bit, the devil is the detail'.

    As people so often point out battery packs in phones/laptops die after just a few years, yet the battery pack in cars are lasting 100K-200K+ with at most 10% degradation. That hasn't happened because of chance, and I highly doubt Nissan/Tesla/Renault/BMW etc will simply handover their years of battery research to Dyson.
     
  13. IronGiant

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    Isn't it obvious that this thing will be propelled by cyclone technology? :devil:
     
  14. lovegroova

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    Because the information is not public, doesn't mean it's not available to customers. Panasonic/Sony/Samsung etc are happy to supply their batteries technology to others. And Dyson are now able to get hold of an existing Tesla/BMW/Nissan and take it apart...

    I don't know how you know the inner workings of Dyson and how you know they are making the mistake you describe. It's a bizarre statement to make. Dyson himself said:
    “The project will grow quickly from here but at this stage we will not release any information. Competition for new technology in the automotive industry is fierce and we must do everything we can to keep the specifics of our vehicle confidential.”

    Why are you conflating mileage with time in your comparison? It makes no sense. If you'd said that car battery packs are lasting for far longer than those in laptops and phones, then that would be a more sensible comparison.
     
  15. gangzoom

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    It will be interesting to see just how much 'sharing' of data between brands Panasonic/LG/Samsung are allowed with the various contracts they sign.

    Panasonic sell the 'same' cell they make for Tesla as a commercial product, but their actual performance is widely different. The commercial cell has 30% degradation at 500 cycles (what you expect from a phone etc), but the Tesla cell shows 5% degradation at the same number of cycles.

    Tesla battery cell breakdown shows what is inside and difference with Panasonic’s regular cells

    I would be amazed if Panasonic was allowed to 'sell' the secrets of that cell to a third party without ALOT of cash and conditions. Equally I highly doubt BMW would be happy for Samsung to just start supplying Mercedes with the same cells they have developed. It's like saying Audi can just go to the parts supplier of BMW and say 'let me buy the parts you guys supply to BMW so that we can also build a M engine, heres some cash now keep quite'.

    I'm no chemical engineer but am pretty sure if it was so easy to reverse engineer a battery pack other people would have done it by now long before Dyson, the Model S and Leaf have been on sale since 2012, but 5 years later nearly all other brands are still promising EVs in 2020+.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  16. IronGiant

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    I gathered from our Leaf salesman that Nissan and Renault collaborate quite closely. Do you know who makes their batteries gz?
     
  17. lovegroova

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    The secrets can be sold if the price is right.

    The last paragraph is a specious argument. Most large auto manufacturers simply weren't interested in making electric cars because of the development costs which they would rather not have had to swallow (see the comments in your recent post made by the bosses of Mercedes/an other manufacturer about the huge development costs). This is the real cause of the delay IMO, not them having problems developing the technology.

    Fortunately, the success of Tesla, and to a lesser extent, Nissan, has meant that governments have now forced them to do so, but there will inevitably be a delay in developing it. A "wait and see" approach seems to have been a good one for the big car manufacturers. Now the wait is over, they are all going to pile in.

    As you like "wise men" so much, one told me that it's not usually a good idea to be first with a technology, but it's best to take what someone else has done and improve that. This was an insurer, but the same could be said of Apple, who have made themselves into the world's most valuable company by adopting this strategy.

    What happens up to 2025 will be very interesting. You have been quite correct that the main advantage Tesla has is not the cars, but the Supercharging network. I expect that there will be sharing between Tesla and other manufacturers (Mercedes most likely based on nothing more than a hunch).
     
  18. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    I know Nissan made their own cells till recently but I think Zoe cells come from LG. But as you can see from the video below (5:00) Renualt clearly still assemble the packs.

    Formula E & Renault Zoe | Fully Charged


    I wish Dyson all the luck in the world, but I've lost track the number of start ups who have tried to get into the EV market over the last few years and than flop/fold. £2bn really is nothing to get excited about in the EV development game.

    The proof will be what Dyson can actually deliver.
     
  19. lovegroova

    lovegroova
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  20. IronGiant

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    That's probably why the salesman laughed when we said we were choosing a Nissan because they had more experience in the field :)
     
  21. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    Renault also own Dacia.



    (Cough)
     
  22. gangzoom

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    But the battery supply for the Leaf and Zoe are not connected. Nissan produced all their own cells upuntill very recently, Renualt am pretty sure soruced them via a third party.

    The Leaf/Zoe also share no parts.
     
  23. IronGiant

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    The point was I was suggesting two different companies were happy to share technologies, which becomes somewhat moot when you find out they are essentially the same company, rendering my point redundant :thumbsdow :D
     
  24. lovegroova

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    Nissan recently sold its battery business to GSR. LG make the batteries for the Zoe, but you'd be a fool to think there is not and will not be significant collaboration between battery suppliers and EV manufacturers.

    It's worth noting that Nissan's operation was a collaboration with NEC.

    The web of interconnected corporate shennanigans is very tangled.
     
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  25. outoftheknow

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    Dyson is aware the batteries are expensive - half the amount he is putting in is for the batteries according to that article. He does have substantial knowledge of batteries to power things and I have no doubt he knows how to remove the built in obselescence of his stick vacuum batteries :devil:
     
  26. outoftheknow

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    All those are US$ so Dyson’s budget in UK£ For a non mass market car looks ok surely? People don’t have to spend more than everyone else to produce something to compete in a market.
     
  27. outoftheknow

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  28. gangzoom

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    Very off topic, but actually the project is half done and the 100 day count down only started a few days ago :).

    World's biggest battery 'half-built'
     
  29. BAN5HEE

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    I don't think they will have to work as hard or spend near as much $ as Tesla did. People forget that Tesla made all their car Patents freely available. So Dyson can just take those and tweak it.
     

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