Dynamic tone mapping and projectors

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Shoot me down if this is a stupid question but does room conditions have any bearing on how good HDR looks with a projector?

@Diddern I have tried HDR on both my Sony X700 and Panny 420, without a doubt the Panny looks better so in my opinion whilst the Epson is decent enough on it's own it really took the combination of both to produce a good HDR experience.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
I wished UHD Blu Rays published the maximum and average nits on the back of the box because it’s generally the ones around 1000nits and above that are most problematic..... but I suppose it’s these discs which look most HDR like.

Double edged sword.

hi luminated if you hit the display info button on the pana it should show this info while viewing(sometimes it is incorrect or missing) ? unless you mean you want to know when buying ? does that mean you wouldn't buy them or something ? that would be a shame...but honestly jump onto DTM...not something you will even bother looking at going forward as they all look great :)
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
Shoot me down if this is a stupid question but does room conditions have any bearing on how good HDR looks with a projector?

black floor... lower it is ...greater the dynamic range

I have tried HDR on both my Sony X700 and Panny 420, without a doubt the Panny looks better so in my opinion whilst the Epson is decent enough on it's own it really took the combination of both to produce a good HDR experience.

hi laminated does your 420 do static tone mapping like the 820 I can't remember now :D if does I expect its better than the x700.

the thing with the epson is it cant see meta data so using slider is handy but the pana doing its thing prior with the meta data (where available and if not wrong) will help;p prepare things ... so yeah i can see why both together will be better
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Shoot me down if this is a stupid question but does room conditions have any bearing on how good HDR looks with a projector?

@Diddern I have tried HDR on both my Sony X700 and Panny 420, without a doubt the Panny looks better so in my opinion whilst the Epson is decent enough on it's own it really took the combination of both to produce a good HDR experience.
regardless of input format the room conditions will always have the greatest impact on PQ when using projection technology of any kind.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
The internal tone mapping on the Epson is quite good and much better than the X series from JVC.
But anyway: HDR = high dynamic range.

Use MadVR for tone mapping on your JVC X9500.
You will be amazed.
Yeah I wish it was scene by scene like JVC then it would be excellent, its not just the tone mapping in the Epson, its waay brighter too which has a huge impact on HDR.

I used madvr on the JVC and yes its was great.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Yeah I wish it was scene by scene like JVC then it would be excellent, its not just the tone mapping in the Epson, its waay brighter too which has a huge impact on HDR.

I used madvr on the JVC and yes its was great.
As DTM is mostly tweaked by eye its impossible to compare.

Lets take a Epson TW9400 with a native contrast around 4000:1 thats the window you have to work with for DTM, yes its a bright projector, however thats only relevant to screen size. so if we set the max lightoutput to 20fl on screen and tonemap for that, you have from 14-20fl reserved for highlights/ the dynamic part of the movie, vs a SDR mastering, on the epson thats a limited reduction of contrast, maybe 30% but as its already fairly low its not experienced as making much of a difference.

Now you take a JVC X3 with 15000:1 native contrast, its has much less lightoutput, but as thats a screen size thing we put it on a 1.3 gain 100" screen that will give you around 26fl, some headroom for lamp dimming and closing down the iris, ill estimate calibrated contrast around 20000:1, thats a much bigger dynamic span to tonemap to, now you come closer to the dynamic of the SDR mastering, however since your already used to a 25000:1 contrast with that projector with SDR content, dark scenes will to some extend look washed out in comparison, the higher light output will for a time help to blind you, so that you will not notice right away on dark content. Problem will be Harry Potter in HDR.

With high contrast projectors you can get away with calibrating a higher SDR gamma, gamma is the parameter that makes for the biggest difference in how you perceive the content, higher gamma will make colors look more saturated, to high gamma it will look oversaturated, and a low gamma will make the image washed out, with lower contrast projectors you can not get away with a 2.4 gamma its simply to shallow out of black, and the differentiation will drown in the high black level.

If you apply some of the same methods to SDR as we today do to HDR we apply to no standard, you will be able to tweak the gamma curve to your personal preferences, a bit like setting the projector to its vivid mode, its just a very different color and gamma setup, makes it look completely different.

So as long as we all uses different projectors, have different preferences, and apply wild west settings for DTM, nobody knows what who is watching, its most likely that everybody here have projector setups with DTM that is pointing in as many different directions as there is participants in this thread.

Not even as simple parameters as calibrated lightoutput and black level has been shared once in this 9 page long thread.

What is the ideal outcome on a subjective discussion like this? How can we relate to someone else when we have no idea what they are working with, if you go to a car forum there would be tire sizes rim sizes engine specs and all sorts of detailed information going around, here the most basic spec such as screen size barely mentioned.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
black floor... lower it is ...greater the dynamic range

That sounds logical, I reckon I do see a lot more shadow detail probably because of the room conditions.

hi laminated does your 420 do static tone mapping like the 820 I can't remember now :D if does I expect its better than the x700.

the thing with the epson is it cant see meta data so using slider is handy but the pana doing its thing prior with the meta data (where available and if not wrong) will help;p prepare things ... so yeah i can see why both together will be better

For the most part I am very happy with this combination, I can honestly only think of one occasion that I had to adjust the slider on the Epson more than once during a movie which the likes of the JVC would have probably got it right straight off.

regardless of input format the room conditions will always have the greatest impact on PQ when using projection technology of any kind.

So true, I actually think it was the biggest improvement I did beyond everything else. Regardless of your projector when you get the room right only then are you truly seeing what any projector is capable of.
 

bytehoven

Active Member
As DTM is mostly tweaked by eye its impossible to compare.

Lets take a Epson TW9400 with a native contrast around 4000:1 thats the window you have to work with for DTM, yes its a bright projector, however thats only relevant to screen size. so if we set the max lightoutput to 20fl on screen and tonemap for that, you have from 14-20fl reserved for highlights/ the dynamic part of the movie, vs a SDR mastering, on the epson thats a limited reduction of contrast, maybe 30% but as its already fairly low its not experienced as making much of a difference.

Now you take a JVC X3 with 15000:1 native contrast, its has much less lightoutput, but as thats a screen size thing we put it on a 1.3 gain 100" screen that will give you around 26fl, some headroom for lamp dimming and closing down the iris, ill estimate calibrated contrast around 20000:1, thats a much bigger dynamic span to tonemap to, now you come closer to the dynamic of the SDR mastering, however since your already used to a 25000:1 contrast with that projector with SDR content, dark scenes will to some extend look washed out in comparison, the higher light output will for a time help to blind you, so that you will not notice right away on dark content. Problem will be Harry Potter in HDR.

With high contrast projectors you can get away with calibrating a higher SDR gamma, gamma is the parameter that makes for the biggest difference in how you perceive the content, higher gamma will make colors look more saturated, to high gamma it will look oversaturated, and a low gamma will make the image washed out, with lower contrast projectors you can not get away with a 2.4 gamma its simply to shallow out of black, and the differentiation will drown in the high black level.

If you apply some of the same methods to SDR as we today do to HDR we apply to no standard, you will be able to tweak the gamma curve to your personal preferences, a bit like setting the projector to its vivid mode, its just a very different color and gamma setup, makes it look completely different.

So as long as we all uses different projectors, have different preferences, and apply wild west settings for DTM, nobody knows what who is watching, its most likely that everybody here have projector setups with DTM that is pointing in as many different directions as there is participants in this thread.

Not even as simple parameters as calibrated lightoutput and black level has been shared once in this 9 page long thread.

What is the ideal outcome on a subjective discussion like this? How can we relate to someone else when we have no idea what they are working with, if you go to a car forum there would be tire sizes rim sizes engine specs and all sorts of detailed information going around, here the most basic spec such as screen size barely mentioned.
Very good... I said on another forum...

DTM?... just the latest chapter in the story of the Wild West of HDR on projectors.

My biggest fault with DTM, the lack of a standard for choices made regarding how to squeeze a size 12 foot into size 3 princess slipper. :)

At least Dolby Vision and HDR10+ provide a direct link to creative intent.

With DTM, the best testimony as to the reference quality and any adherence to the colorist intent, has been anecdotal.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Very good... I said on another forum...

DTM?... just the latest chapter in the story of the Wild West of HDR on projectors.

My biggest fault with DTM, the lack of a standard for choices made regarding how to squeeze a size 12 foot into size 3 princess slipper. :)

At least Dolby Vision and HDR10+ provide a direct link to creative intent.

With DTM, the best testimony as to the reference quality and any adherence to the colorist intent, has been anecdotal.

As this is about Projector DTM once again DV is not, and likely will never be supported officially, so im not sure why you keep bringing up DV.

Could you please share some thoughts about how the creators intend gets transferred into HDR10+ on a projector setup, how will you secure the format/ DTM is done right, and would you have specific demands to screen size and dynamic range capabilities of the setup?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
As far as HDR and projectors go, I think that is the best you could ever hope or ask for.

It wasn’t until I used the S&M disc that I realised how good he had balance the capabilities of the Epson
931435CC-AF53-438E-872F-5BDA6184033A.jpeg

You look at the disc and think it’s all blacked out but you look closer and all the detail is there in all it’s glory.
EF517686-2D2F-4044-893F-13DDE6B8C0CC.jpeg
 

Diddern

Active Member
Shoot me down if this is a stupid question but does room conditions have any bearing on how good HDR looks with a projector?

@Diddern I have tried HDR on both my Sony X700 and Panny 420, without a doubt the Panny looks better so in my opinion whilst the Epson is decent enough on it's own it really took the combination of both to produce a good HDR experience.
Hope I understand U correct.
Room Batcave will be best, then you get the max contrast your Projector can do visible.
With a bright room, your projector loose contrast and like said before HDR High dynamic range.

But HDR also refers to a video signal with greater bit depth, luminance, and color volume than standard dynamic range (SDR) video which uses a conventional gamma curve.
So tone mapping is really important. The Panasonic 420 is for shore better than a Sony X700 player when it comes to tone mapping.

So I will say on projectors we try to make it as good as possible. You can like it or hate it.

Also when it comes to Epson it's rally easy with HDR. HDR Slider up and down brighter or darker.
You calibrate SDR and use the internal tone mapping in the projector with test pictures, measured.
It works perfectly.
 

bytehoven

Active Member
As this is about Projector DTM once again DV is not, and likely will never be supported officially, so im not sure why you keep bringing up DV.

Could you please share some thoughts about how the creators intend gets transferred into HDR10+ on a projector setup, how will you secure the format/ DTM is done right, and would you have specific demands to screen size and dynamic range capabilities of the setup?
I believe there is great interest in the new Samsung Premiere LSPxT UST as the 1st projector announced with dynamic tone mapping via HDR10+. There is anticipation to see how these new models perform at 120" (LSP7T) and 130" (LSP9T) setups. I have a friend waiting to pick up the LSP9T as soon as one becomes available. I'm eager to get his feedback.

I do not share your view that DV will never be officially implemented on projectors. The info I have received is the road block is market segment politics rather then platform technical limitations. However, your technical points regarding screen size, dynamic range prerequisites, etc, could certainly be part of any standardization and subsequent certification.

And like it or not, DV on HDR10 capable projectors is available now unofficially, via DV LLDV EDID spoofing. And there are far too many positive experience reports to dismiss this hack out of hand.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Hope I understand U correct.
Room Batcave will be best, then you get the max contrast your Projector can do visible.
With a bright room, your projector loose contrast and like said before HDR High dynamic range.

But HDR also refers to a video signal with greater bit depth, luminance, and color volume than standard dynamic range (SDR) video which uses a conventional gamma curve.
So tone mapping is really important. The Panasonic 420 is for shore better than a Sony X700 player when it comes to tone mapping.

So I will say on projectors we try to make it as good as possible. You can like it or hate it.

Also when it comes to Epson it's rally easy with HDR. HDR Slider up and down brighter or darker.
You calibrate SDR and use the internal tone mapping in the projector with test pictures, measured.
It works perfectly.

Yes Bat Cave maximises your contrast so in turn gives your projector the best conditions to produce IT's best HDR.

The HDR Slider is an odd thing, with normal movies I find between 4 and 6 works best but when I use the S&M disc and pick the demo material either 1000nits or 4000nits I had to adjust the slider down to 11 or 12 so is it's bright to dark or something else.
 

Diddern

Active Member
Yes Bat Cave maximises your contrast so in turn gives your projector the best conditions to produce IT's best HDR.

The HDR Slider is an odd thing, with normal movies I find between 4 and 6 works best but when I use the S&M disc and pick the demo material either 1000nits or 4000nits I had to adjust the slider down to 11 or 12 so is it's bright to dark or something else.

There is a combination of the player and inside the projector. It will always be a compromise.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
There is a combination of the player and inside the projector. It will always be a compromise.

I realise this but the odd thing is if you adjusted the slider down to 11 or 12 with a regular movie like BR2049 which is only 150 nits it would be way too darker so nits level must also affect the general brightness of the movie.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I believe there is great interest in the new Samsung Premiere LSPxT UST as the 1st projector announced with dynamic tone mapping via HDR10+. There is anticipation to see how these new models perform at 120" (LSP7T) and 130" (LSP9T) setups. I have a friend waiting to pick up the LSP9T as soon as one becomes available. I'm eager to get his feedback.

I do not share your view that DV will never be officially implemented on projectors. The info I have received is the road block is market segment politics rather then platform technical limitations. However, your technical points regarding screen size, dynamic range prerequisites, etc, could certainly be part of any standardization and subsequent certification.

And like it or not, DV on HDR10 capable projectors is available now unofficially, via DV LLDV EDID spoofing. And there are far too many positive experience reports to dismiss this hack out of hand.
But can you explain how you will make sure that HDR10+ DTM will give you directors intend on a projector setup, how is it going to be different than the current situation?

What kind of demands would you put to DTM and projectors if you were the content creator to make sure the end result present your desired look?
 

Diddern

Active Member
I realize this but the odd thing is if you adjusted the slider down to 11 or 12 with a regular movie like BR2049 which is only 150 nits it would be way too darker so the nits level must also affect the general brightness of the movie.
Have not tried it so I can't say. Adjust it to 1000 nits and let it be :)
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
That sounds logical, I reckon I do see a lot more shadow detail probably because of the room conditions.



For the most part I am very happy with this combination, I can honestly only think of one occasion that I had to adjust the slider on the Epson more than once during a movie which the likes of the JVC would have probably got it right straight off.



So true, I actually think it was the biggest improvement I did beyond everything else. Regardless of your projector when you get the room right only then are you truly seeing what any projector is capable of.
Yep, same applies for acoustic treatment. First and foremost what you hear is your room not your speakers unless treated well. Unless the room is treated for proper cinema application the best PJ may look like a much cheaper one.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Yes Bat Cave maximises your contrast so in turn gives your projector the best conditions to produce IT's best HDR.

The HDR Slider is an odd thing, with normal movies I find between 4 and 6 works best but when I use the S&M disc and pick the demo material either 1000nits or 4000nits I had to adjust the slider down to 11 or 12 so is it's bright to dark or something else.
4 and 6 is waay washed out and clips highlights badly. on the 9400 it is.
 

bytehoven

Active Member
But can you explain how you will make sure that HDR10+ DTM will give you directors intend on a projector setup, how is it going to be different than the current situation?

What kind of demands would you put to DTM and projectors if you were the content creator to make sure the end result present your desired look?
If you break it down... you start with the best data from the content source...

- via use of the colorist meta data available in HDR10+ and DV content layers.
or
- via the 3rd party tone mapping calculation best guess at what the grade meta data might have looked like if it were available.

This is an entirely separate debate and empirical judgement, before you even get to considerations of the display type ability to reproduce the image data.

When it comes to how to fit 1024 bits of color & luminance data into a 256 bit package, it is not lossless. Choices are made, and personally I'd prefer these choices be made by the colorist for inclusion in a trim pass that can be accurately mapped to the display capability.

I'm not sure if you are saying the current crop of consumer projectors are incapable of properly displaying HDR creative intent. Is that what you're saying? I don't believe that is the case, but at the same time there is no free lunch, and I care about who is deciding what is in the Lunch Bag. :)

Certainly there was a similar challenge with SDR and display performance capabilities. HDR only exacerbates such performance capability considerations, as you have so eloquently noted, many times in many posts.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
If you break it down... you start with the best data from the content source...

- via use of the colorist meta data available in HDR10+ and DV content layers.
or
- via the 3rd party tone mapping calculation best guess at what the grade meta data might have looked like if it were available.

This is an entirely separate debate and empirical judgement, before you even get to considerations of the display type ability to reproduce the image data.

When it comes to how to fit 1024 bits of color & luminance data into a 256 bit package, it is not lossless. Choices are made, and personally I'd prefer these choices be made by the colorist for inclusion in a trim pass that can be accurately mapped to the display capability.

I'm not sure if you are saying the current crop of consumer projectors are incapable of properly displaying HDR creative intent. Is that what you're saying? I don't believe that is the case, but at the same time there is no free lunch, and I care about who is deciding what is in the Lunch Bag. :)

Certainly there was a similar challenge with SDR and display performance capabilities. HDR only exacerbates such performance capability considerations, as you have so eloquently noted, many times in many posts.
Out of all this HDR mess why not have a 4K WCG SDR mastering available on the disc, a creators tonemapping to fit projection setup, we already have HDR 10. HDR 10+. DV. HLG. Why not a WCG-SDR format, just to add to the format war. Then the studios can pop the colors on that edition to and add some blue to the mastering grayscale and some digital noise reduction, making it all look like CGI. Free us from the film look, who likes 35/ 70mm film anyway.
 

bytehoven

Active Member
Out of all this HDR mess why not have a 4K WCG SDR mastering available on the disc, a creators tonemapping to fit projection setup, we already have HDR 10. HDR 10+. DV. HLG. Why not a WCG-SDR format, just to add to the format war. Then the studios can pop the colors on that edition to and add some blue to the mastering grayscale and some digital noise reduction, making it all look like CGI. Free us from the film look, who likes 35/ 70mm film anyway.
Excellent Point!

Oh to be a fly on the wall when The Advisory Committee was shooting the breeze on that one. :)
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
4 and 6 is waay washed out and clips highlights badly. on the 9400 it is.

Definitely not on mine. Out of curiosity what is your brightness and contrast when set to HDR.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Definitely not on mine. Out of curiosity what is your brightness and contrast when set to HDR.
Well if it isn't washed out on yours something is very different. Contrast and brightness is neutral as always, those should not need to be touched unless something is out of place, similar to keystone.
 

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