Dynamic tone mapping and projectors

mb3195

Distinguished Member
While I agree with everything you say, stating that the Sony 760 is superior to an OLED other than size is a little rich :)
why would I say so if not the case?

OLEDs have better blacks, granted.

PJ has the following
- Better motion
- more filmic image
- more 3 dimensional look
- bigger screen/more immersion

Honestly, it’s not even close what is a a better overall image.
 

bytehoven

Active Member
While I agree with everything you say, stating that the Sony 760 is superior to an OLED other than size is a little rich :)
The Sony A1 is no longer the standard either, considering the A1 lacks the internal tone mapping and puts the burden on the source device.

So... posting positive experience about the tech gets deleted, but it's OK for others to reference and spread disinformation and derogatory information about the tech? ;)
 
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Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
For HT projectors ill think they come in the following order when comes to HDR capabilities.

1 JVC 25000:1 native panel on off contrast
2 SONY 8000:1
3 EPSON 4000:1
4 DLP 1000:1
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
For HT projectors ill think they come in the following order when comes to HDR capabilities.

1 JVC 25000:1 native panel on off contrast
2 SONY 8000:1
3 EPSON 4000:1
4 DLP 1000:1
I genuinely haven’t seen either a Sony or JVC with HDR to give an opinion how good each look, I imagine the JVC will best everything else but have watched stuff on my Epson and I reckon it looked surprisingly good.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I genuinely haven’t seen either a Sony or JVC with HDR to give an opinion how good each look, I imagine the JVC will best everything else but have watched stuff on my Epson and I reckon it looked surprisingly good.
Im only talking about dynamic capabilities here, then the hole DTM is a chapter all by itself, so lets just say we use Mad Vr on all of them, and use them on screen sizes that matsch each projectors lightoutput capabilities. HDR = High Dynamic Range, so the higher dynamic range on the projector the better. SONY and JVC are the only real 4K projectors, so a + as such the older JVC 1080P models without Eshift have a native contrast around 15000:1 so something like a old JVC X3 would come between the current 4K models and the Sony models.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
If you have a professional calibration you always get a calibration report, ALWAYS, if not its not professionally calibrated, so im sure you have a THX or ISF report somewhere.

And ill have to say you confirm my thoughts about HDR very well, its highly subjective, you rarely see anyone stepping up documenting the differences/ improvements on HDR on projectors, if you allow im sure Gordon have your calibration report saved, would it be ok if he share it with us, to try move the discussion into a more objective/ serious direction with some actual data?
Maybe in misunderstanding your comment, are you suggesting because neither myself or @mb3195 received a calibration report that they weren’t professionally calibrated or are you suggesting the @Gordon @ Convergent AV isn’t a professional calibrator.

All I know is the image from my Epson looked decidedly better after Gordon did his magic and by the sounds of it @mb3195 is equally as happy. In my opinion no need for any report to tell me it’s as near perfectly calibrated as possible because I can see it with my own eyes.

I will agree though that HDR is very subjective and as there’s no recognised standard of how it should look it’s really all to the individual as to how they think that should be. When I put in my S&M disc in my opinion Gordon has stuck a beautiful balance with the capabilities of the Epson.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Maybe in misunderstanding your comment, are you suggesting because neither myself or @mb3195 received a calibration report that they weren’t professionally calibrated or are you suggesting the @Gordon @ Convergent AV isn’t a professional calibrator.

All I know is the image from my Epson looked decidedly better after Gordon did his magic and by the sounds of it @mb3195 is equally as happy. In my opinion no need for any report to tell me it’s as near perfectly calibrated as possible because I can see it with my own eyes.

I will agree though that HDR is very subjective and as there’s no recognised standard of how it should look it’s really all to the individual as to how they think that should be. When I put in my S&M disc in my opinion Gordon has stuck a beautiful balance with the capabilities of the Epson.
All professional calibrators i know off will make a calibration report when finished with before and after measurements on all presets, thats also a good way tracking changes next time you get your projector recalibrated, like with sony you will like to know how much the contrast has degraded, and with JVC if gamma has dropped, and lightoutput/ lamp life.
Unless you have forgotten to pay the bill, then you will most likely not get a calibration report.
In Calman you can generate and save it to PDF and email it.

Looks something like this. There is many different ways to do it, this is a very simple one, not very useful actually.
 

Attachments

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Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I can’t speak for @mb3195 but this was my first professional calibration so I didn’t ask for such a thing. All I know is several hours were spend and the end results were spectacular on both SDR and HDR.

Also very odd comment to suggest something underhand was being conducted between us and Gordon which was why we didn’t get a report. :mad:
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
The Sony A1 is no longer the standard either, considering the A1 lacks the internal tone mapping and puts the burden on the source device.

So posting my experience regrading the tech gets deleted, but it's OK for others to reference and dump on the tech? <facepalm>

I think if you wanna discuss projection vs OLED, you're probably better off making a dedicated thread about it.

however just take into account, posting it on the PJ forum is going to get you opinions which will sway to one side of the argument, similar to how if you posted it on the OLED forum lol.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I can’t speak for @mb3195 but this was my first professional calibration so I didn’t ask for such a thing. All I know is several hours were spend and the end results were spectacular on both SDR and HDR.

Also very odd comment to suggest something underhand was being conducted between us and Gordon which was why we didn’t get a report. :mad:
That is not a suggestion its a general thing, which is why i posted someone, and not anyone specifik, anyway in your case im sure you can just send him a email with your invoice nr. requesting your calibration report, and im sure he will email it to you, it takes 5 min to open up the program and generate the report and email it.
For this thread the only part of the report that is interesting is the HDR tracking, contrast and light on screen, so others can try simulate your setup.
 
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Luminated67

Distinguished Member
That is not a suggestion its a general thing, which is why i posted someone, and not anyone specifik, anyway in your case im sure you can just send him a email requesting your calibration report, and im sure he will email it to you, it takes 5 min to open up the program and generate the report and email it.
For this thread the only part of the report that is interesting is the HDR tracking, contrast and light on screen, so others can try simulate your setup.
Don’t get me wrong I will help anyone whenever I can but Gordon is a professional calibrator and it’s his business which he earns an income from so I do not feel it would be right sharing such a thing.

I know if it were my business I wouldn’t be at all happy.
 

ask4me2

Active Member
Guess that the definition of a professional calibrator has nothing to do with that, but it's a good practice to give the projector owner the calibration report in addition to the calibrated picture on the screen.

All the calibration tools I have used have a function that very simple with a press on a button can generate a calibration report with the measure of the before and after values deltaE etc., .
Think giving that calibration report to the projector owner is a good way of showing how the calibration actually turned out and it gives more objective data for that projector setup too.

It is also nice to have the measured history for that projector if it is re-calibrated later on after a bulb change etc. Guess many Sony owners that experienced the SXRD Degradation could have had good use of the calibration report.....
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Don’t get me wrong I will help anyone whenever I can but Gordon is a professional calibrator and it’s his business which he earns an income from so I do not feel it would be right sharing such a thing.

I know if it were my business I wouldn’t be at all happy.
This is not about your calibrator, no matter who it is, im not the one who have bought a pro calibration and has no report to show for it, or to use as a reference next time you need a calibration or sell the projector, you need to figure that out with your calibrator if you want one.
The calibration reports was to add some objective data to the discussion, not using wife children and someone god knows where saying it looks amazing, calibration data say some not everything, but is at least a small step toward showing different DTM capabilities on different projectors. And with LCD projectors see if the color gamut/ P3 coverage is less next time indicating the panels are burning out.

There is plenty of good reasons to save a report.
 
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Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Guess that the definition of a professional calibrator has nothing to do with that, but it's a good practice to give the projector owner the calibration report in addition to the calibrated picture on the screen.

All the calibration tools I have used have a function that very simple with a press on a button can generate a calibration report with the measure of the before and after values deltaE etc., .
Think giving that calibration report to the projector owner is a good way of showing how the calibration actually turned out and it gives more objective data for that projector setup too.

It is also nice to have the measured history for that projector if it is re-calibrated later on after a bulb change etc. Guess many Sony owners that experienced the SXRD Degradation could have had good use of the calibration report.....
There a HUGH difference between saying it’s good practice at you suggested and something underhanded has taken place as Strids has suggested, frankly I was shocked by this.

The next time Gordon is over to check the projector and tweak for the change of screen I will ask for the report but like aI said it was my first time so all new to me.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
There a HUGH difference between saying it’s good practice at you suggested and something underhanded has taken place as Strids has suggested, frankly I was shocked by this.

The next time Gordon is over to check the projector and tweak for the change of screen I will ask for the report but like aI said it was my first time so all new to me.
Ill try explain AGAIN, i did not suggest anything had taken place, just a example why SOMEONE might not get a report. If i have shocked you im sorry, hope you will excuse my poor english skills and get unshocked, otherwise your welcome to sende me a PM ill ill try my best to comfort you.

Trust me when i say im shocked that your shocked, and on top of that terrified that you accusing me of accusing someone else.

Im truly feeling with you, and think this hole dramatic shocking experience will bring us closer together in the future.🤗

Looking forward to see you HDR calibration report once you get it, and we both has recovered. And can continue this objective HDR DTM discussion.
 
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Diddern

Active Member
To stop this discussion, If I calibrate a display, projector or TV, or screening monitor, I deliver a report,
end of that story. If I forget that,,, "I never do", I can easily look up the calibration by date and name and make a pdf and send it by mail to my customer instantly. This is just something you do. All professional calibrators I know give a calibration report to the customer. SDR, HDR, Dolby Vission.

The calibration report is the only value paper a pro calibrator can give a customer. Also to show before and after work is done. Even before I started professionally with calibration I got reports on my projectors.

Fun to read this today, my Sony VW1000 6964:1native contrast. date 25.11.2014
VW1000.jpg



@Stridsvognen You say:
"For HT projectors ill think they come in the following order when comes to HDR capabilities."

1 JVC 25000:1 native panel on off contrast
2 SONY 8000:1
3 EPSON 4000:1
4 DLP 1000:1

HDR is "HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE" for shore and 1000:1 up to 10000:1 will not be a kickass for that. Your numbers are quite correct native full pop.
HDR on projectors today is more "the tone mapping" and therefore looks good on low contrast projectors too. But side by side with a high contrast projector correct tone-mapped HDR big difference trust me.
 

AceVPD

Standard Member
I only have a cheapish Optoma UHD51 projector but have had good HDR success with the Panasonic 420 for disc and HD Fury Vertex 2 for DV off Apple TV. The Fury made a big difference
 

alebonau

Active Member
I only have a cheapish Optoma UHD51 projector but have had good HDR success with the Panasonic 420 for disc and HD Fury Vertex 2 for DV off Apple TV. The Fury made a big difference
thanks for sharing what you are with your optoma.... is the vertex helping you with non DV content ? wondering if you have compared the dynamic tone mapping capabilities of the vertex using DV off the disc player as well to compare how it goes with the static tone mapping of the pana 420 ? have you considered updating the pana 420 to say 820 thats DV capable and trying the vertex on that as well and also forcing for non DV material (if thats possible ?)

I personally think dynamic tone mapping is very much needed for all projectors. all tone mapping does is map the content across to suit display capabilities. i probably compare it to photography where you adjust exposure depending on scene... you cant use same exposure from a bright daylight scene to one thats a pitch black night scene !
 

AceVPD

Standard Member
thanks for sharing what you are with your optoma.... is the vertex helping you with non DV content ? wondering if you have compared the dynamic tone mapping capabilities of the vertex using DV off the disc player as well to compare how it goes with the static tone mapping of the pana 420 ? have you considered updating the pana 420 to say 820 thats DV capable and trying the vertex on that as well and also forcing for non DV material (if thats possible ?)

I personally think dynamic tone mapping is very much needed for all projectors. all tone mapping does is map the content across to suit display capabilities. i probably compare it to photography where you adjust exposure depending on scene... you cant use same exposure from a bright daylight scene to one thats a pitch black night scene !
I purchased a Sony x700 for DV and tried to do some comparisons with the S&M disc with HDR and DV content. It was far from scientific but there was not a big difference with my setup between HDR10 on the Panasonic compared to DV on the Sony. There was however a massive difference with non DV HDR10 on the Sony to the Panasonic. The Panasonic was way better with the Sony clipping the horse snow scene badly at anything higher than 1000nit mastering. I mainly was looking at that scene for clipping so it's not really testing scene to scene variation.
The Panasonic also does a much better job with 1080p BR.

I dont have any proper test patterns but on the Apple TV it was ok with forced DV on HDR10, but maybe not much better. I need to do more trials.
For SD it was worse with forced DV. Too much hassle to change between so I have turned off forced and set to Match Dynamic Range.
DV on Apple TV is much better.
Although I played with them at the start I am just using the standard default HD Fury settings now. I think it's set to 1000nits max.
Part of the reason I stopped playing was I found I was tweaking and changing too much and not watching the content! I'll probably go back and tweak again at some stage.
I was pretty happy with HDR10 from the Panasonic 420 before I brought the Vertex 2 but I was not happy with HDR10 or DV from the Apple TV. Now I am with most content.
I am using the Sony x700 for DV discs, Panasonic for HDR10 discs and standard BR.
 

alebonau

Active Member
Part of the reason I stopped playing was I found I was tweaking and changing too much and not watching the content! I'll probably go back and tweak again at some stage.
I was pretty happy with HDR10 from the Panasonic 420 before I brought the Vertex 2 but I was not happy with HDR10 or DV from the Apple TV. Now I am with most content.
I am using the Sony x700 for DV discs, Panasonic for HDR10 discs and standard BR.
thank you aceVPD, sounds like you have had opportunity to explore things quite extensively and thank you for sharing your learning's and findings. Most interesting. Looks certainly like you have found something that works well with the player and its tone mapping vs able TV and using the vertex. Good indeed have something that works well for you between all this. Quite right it can get to the point when tweaking takes over and find better to stop and smell the roses :D

good on you and keep us posted if things change and you find some other things in further explorations :)
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I wished UHD Blu Rays published the maximum and average nits on the back of the box because it’s generally the ones around 1000nits and above that are most problematic..... but I suppose it’s these discs which look most HDR like.

Double edged sword.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
why would I say so if not the case?

OLEDs have better blacks, granted.

PJ has the following
- Better motion
- more filmic image
- more 3 dimensional look
- bigger screen/more immersion

Honestly, it’s not even close what is a a better overall image.
Kool, I admit I've only owned Panasonic and LG OLEDs so I can't offer a hands on opinion on this one.
However in my books contrast is the single most important factor so the basis of my comparison lies there hence my opinion.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
thanks for sharing what you are with your optoma.... is the vertex helping you with non DV content ? wondering if you have compared the dynamic tone mapping capabilities of the vertex using DV off the disc player as well to compare how it goes with the static tone mapping of the pana 420 ? have you considered updating the pana 420 to say 820 thats DV capable and trying the vertex on that as well and also forcing for non DV material (if thats possible ?)

I personally think dynamic tone mapping is very much needed for all projectors. all tone mapping does is map the content across to suit display capabilities. i probably compare it to photography where you adjust exposure depending on scene... you cant use same exposure from a bright daylight scene to one thats a pitch black night scene !
Yes DTM is literally a savior for projectors, without it they would be left for dead in the age of HDR. Just watched the new 4K Back to the Future movies they look like new movies.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
To stop this discussion, If I calibrate a display, projector or TV, or screening monitor, I deliver a report,
end of that story. If I forget that,,, "I never do", I can easily look up the calibration by date and name and make a pdf and send it by mail to my customer instantly. This is just something you do. All professional calibrators I know give a calibration report to the customer. SDR, HDR, Dolby Vission.

The calibration report is the only value paper a pro calibrator can give a customer. Also to show before and after work is done. Even before I started professionally with calibration I got reports on my projectors.

Fun to read this today, my Sony VW1000 6964:1native contrast. date 25.11.2014
View attachment 1384838


@Stridsvognen You say:
"For HT projectors ill think they come in the following order when comes to HDR capabilities."

1 JVC 25000:1 native panel on off contrast
2 SONY 8000:1
3 EPSON 4000:1
4 DLP 1000:1

HDR is "HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE" for shore and 1000:1 up to 10000:1 will not be a kickass for that. Your numbers are quite correct native full pop.
HDR on projectors today is more "the tone mapping" and therefore looks good on low contrast projectors too. But side by side with a high contrast projector correct tone-mapped HDR big difference trust me.
I agree with this pretty much except my current EPSON looks way better with native HDR than my old JVC X9500 did due to the brightness difference despite the enormous difference in contrast. That is of course with high APL scenes only.

With DTM is a different story.
 

Diddern

Active Member
I agree with this pretty much except my current EPSON looks way better with native HDR than my old JVC X9500 did due to the brightness difference despite the enormous difference in contrast. That is of course with high APL scenes only.

With DTM is a different story.
The internal tone mapping on the Epson is quite good and much better than the X series from JVC.
But anyway: HDR = high dynamic range.

Use MadVR for tone mapping on your JVC X9500.
You will be amazed.
 

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