Dynamic tone mapping and projectors

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
this isn’t true.

you don’t need to change anything when you introduce something new into the equation other than if you change PJ, which you’d likely pay (maybe not you) for a professional calibration anyway.

Gordon has been to mine on a few occasions, but only when I change PJ’s and one time I changed my screen. Never for anything else.
So how do you know if your new player or streamer is setup right, the EDID manipulation and so on, i guess it depends just how perfect you want it, personally i prefer to know what i have and how to set things up, so from my point you guys should all go buy a JETI 1501, and a Klein K10A or a CR100 and CR250, with Calman Ultimate for Business and a reference 4K HDR image generator, and go find out how it all works along with all the complexities of HDR Lumagen Mad Vr, so you can make professional evaluations of all these devices not having to adapt opinions from marketing and guys selling these solutions, some good old fashioned hands on experience, instead of all the endless keyboard banging and internet surfing to support what you think you know.;)
 

alebonau

Active Member
good reason am sure the lumagen are sold through installer channels... and all respect for those guys, no doubt know their stuff or wouldn't be selling them..

thank good ness for rest of us, jvc has its thing built in. am sure not a patch on the lumagen but very little initial setup I did when downloaded the update an thats it ... set for get its been :) watching the video about the upcoming update, I beleive its going to be more out of box and also self adjusting as lamp ages... anyways lets see...
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
So how do you know if your new player or streamer is setup right, the EDID manipulation and so on, i guess it depends just how perfect you want it, personally i prefer to know what i have and how to set things up, so from my point you guys should all go buy a JETI 1501, and a Klein K10A or a CR100 and CR250, with Calman Ultimate for Business and a reference 4K HDR image generator, and go find out how it all works along with all the complexities of HDR Lumagen Mad Vr, so you can make professional evaluations of all these devices not having to adapt opinions from marketing and guys selling these solutions, some good old fashioned hands on experience, instead of all the endless keyboard banging and internet surfing to support what you think you know.;)
simple. I ask Gordon. He tells me.

It’s not as difficult as you’re making out.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
simple. I ask Gordon. He tells me.

It’s not as difficult as you’re making out.
Maybe you could share some light on your boy toy budget, and what is costs to get the job done, so others might relate to the situation.

How is the Chroma upsampling on the Lumagen pro these days, will it pass 4:4:4 without any bandwidth limitations or upsample to 4:4:4 perfectly?
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Maybe you could share some light on your boy toy budget, and what is costs to get the job done, so others might relate to the situation.
one off calibration is the same price as a PJ calibration. Future Q&A’s cost nothing.


How is the Chroma upsampling on the Lumagen pro these days, will it pass 4:4:4 without any bandwidth limitations or upsample to 4:4:4 perfectly?
ask the experts. All I know it that my image looks perfect.

I really don’t think anyone else on here goes into calibration details like you do. 99.9% of us want it calibrated and then working. We watch the films and think “wow, this looks amazing”

I have zero interest in buying any calibration gear. I know I don’t need to. Gordon did it earlier this year, with each firmware update, the lumagen just gets better and better.

If you’re not happy with HDR on a PJ, that’s probably because you haven’t seen a recent lumagen with the latest firmware. It looks absolutely outstanding.

I have a calibrated 65” Sony A1. The image on my PJ with lumagen is far superior. I don’t need measuring equipment to tell me what looks better.

Even my 12 year old daughter, last night we watched war for the planet of the apes on 4k in my cinema room. She fee asleep with 20 minutes to go so watched the last part on my tv this morning.

I asked her what was the better picture - she immediately said the PJ is loads better.

That’s all we need, our eyes and opinions, that’s all that really matters.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
one off calibration is the same price as a PJ calibration. Future Q&A’s cost nothing.




ask the experts. All I know it that my image looks perfect.

I really don’t think anyone else on here goes into calibration details like you do. 99.9% of us want it calibrated and then working. We watch the films and think “wow, this looks amazing”

I have zero interest in buying any calibration gear. I know I don’t need to. Gordon did it earlier this year, with each firmware update, the lumagen just gets better and better.

If you’re not happy with HDR on a PJ, that’s probably because you haven’t seen a recent lumagen with the latest firmware. It looks absolutely outstanding.

I have a calibrated 65” Sony A1. The image on my PJ with lumagen is far superior. I don’t need measuring equipment to tell me what looks better.

Even my 12 year old daughter, last night we watched war for the planet of the apes on 4k in my cinema room. She fee asleep with 20 minutes to go so watched the last part on my tv this morning.

I asked her what was the better picture - she immediately said the PJ is loads better.

That’s all we need, our eyes and opinions, that’s all that really matters.
Would you be so kind to share your HDR calibration report on your projector setup, it would be a great help to the topic, and add some objective information to this discussion, without having to use your 12 year old daughter as a reference.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Would you be so kind to share your HDR calibration report on your projector setup, it would be a great help to the topic, and add some objective information to this discussion, without having to use your 12 year old daughter as a reference.
nope. I don’t have it.

And guess what....I don’t care.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
nope. I don’t have it.

And guess what....I don’t care.
If you have a professional calibration you always get a calibration report, ALWAYS, if not its not professionally calibrated, so im sure you have a THX or ISF report somewhere.

And ill have to say you confirm my thoughts about HDR very well, its highly subjective, you rarely see anyone stepping up documenting the differences/ improvements on HDR on projectors, if you allow im sure Gordon have your calibration report saved, would it be ok if he share it with us, to try move the discussion into a more objective/ serious direction with some actual data?
 

bytehoven

Active Member
Here is an interesting test pattern that might help reveal subjective bias in our perceptions of tone mapping performance on a projector.

Do you see squares?

Do you see circles? If yes, how many?

Screen Shot 2020-10-18 at 7.06.38 AM.jpg
 
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Luminated67

Well-known Member
Here is an interesting test pattern that might help reveal subjective bias in our perceptions of tone mapping performance on a projector.

Do you see squares?

Do you see circles? If yes, how many?

View attachment 1383840
If you see circle in this test pattern then you REALLY need to go to Specsavers.:laugh:
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
If you see circle in this test pattern then you REALLY need to go to Specsavers.:laugh:

BTW mate, found someone with their Epson comparing Epson tone mapping to MADVR tone mapped onto the EPson.. incase it temptsy you to the dark side of MADVR.

 

ask4me2

Active Member
Here is an interesting test pattern that might help reveal subjective bias in our perceptions of tone mapping performance on a projector.

Do you see squares?

Do you see circles? If yes, how many?

View attachment 1383840
AM.png

I see a lot of ringing...? Do you have the original 4K 10bit HDR source file? This highly jpg compressed test pattern is not good for anything other than to make a point.:confused:


How many apples do you see?

Guess patterns like this can be more real with as much dynamic range as the light reflected from the aluminum surface. put it in direct sunlight and it will easily do 10 000 nits.

macprolattice-800x474.jpg
:D
 

Luminated67

Well-known Member
BTW mate, found someone with their Epson comparing Epson tone mapping to MADVR tone mapped onto the EPson.. incase it temptsy you to the dark side of MADVR.

I have no doubt MadVR is far superior but it’s not really an option for me. All my equipment apart from my Bluray players is in another room behind the screen so I couldn’t place the HTPC in there because access requires removing the screen each and every time.

Secondly I’m not sure if you can use a built in Bluray player on the PC to run through the MadVR software, if the answer was no then I just don’t have to time to rip all my movies onto a harddrive. So for me the tweaking both my internal HDR slider and the Panny software is a simpler less painful solution at present. In any case this is how the S&M disc looks like with the combination of the two.

EBF3385B-5B00-4C64-BBAF-924ADD6EEB3B.jpeg
8894C4C8-34CB-4606-A90F-0DAFC730BCC9.jpeg
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I have no doubt MadVR is far superior but it’s not really an option for me. All my equipment apart from my Bluray players is in another room behind the screen so I couldn’t place the HTPC in there because access requires removing the screen each and every time.

Secondly I’m not sure if you can use a built in Bluray player on the PC to run through the MadVR software, if the answer was no then I just don’t have to time to rip all my movies onto a harddrive. So for me the tweaking both my internal HDR slider and the Panny software is a simpler less painful solution at present. In any case this is how the S&M disc looks like with the combination of the two.

View attachment 1383976View attachment 1383977
I just ripped 2 films.. and it took me like 5 minutes. Its insanely quick.

Just load MakeMKV, click the part of the disc you want to rip and click ok.. and it'll do it for you very very quickly.

Actually saves time now without having to faff around with blu-ray menus etc. ;)
 

Luminated67

Well-known Member
I just ripped 2 films.. and it took me like 5 minutes. Its insanely quick.

Just load MakeMKV, click the part of the disc you want to rip and click ok.. and it'll do it for you very very quickly.

Actually saves time now without having to faff around with blu-ray menus etc. ;)
What’s the make of bluray reader you are using and is it 4K?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
 

Luminated67

Well-known Member
For that, you need some BDXL compatible players.
I uses the ASUS-BW-16D1HT & LG BH16NS55
Neither state they read UHD blurays, I wonder is this changed?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
If you have the money it’s very hard to argue against getting a JVC N series.

Their comittment to continuously improve their products has REALLY impressed me. They literally have no reason to do all this. They were already ahead of their closest competition but they just keep widening the gap.

Impressive company as my initial opinion was always they have awesome blacks/contrast but just don't care but over the years they seem to have tried to address as many issues as they can.
 

Luminated67

Well-known Member
Their comittment to continuously improve their products has REALLY impressed me. They literally have no reason to do all this. They were already ahead of their closest competition but they just keep widening the gap.

Impressive company as my initial opinion was always they have awesome blacks/contrast but just don't care but over the years they seem to have tried to address as many issues as they can.
I use to deal with JVC as a car audio dealer and in my opinion they were the one brand that I felt listened so I am not at all surprised they are moving forward. The fact they are doing all of this for free is the surprise.
 

FelixIo

Member
I've been reading this thread and got myself interested in many of the devices nominated here (and on other threads too), and then, while watching a movie, I had a bit of a "revelation" (of mine, at my small level, not that bigger ones that changes your life entirely), and will just say it here, without any small shadow of wanting to offend anyone, but maybe helpful for some, maybe even to the thread starter, @alebonau:
- with all those settings and configs and searching to purchase "THE BEST" possible equipment, we spent more hours/days of our time instead of doing the very thing itself - ENJOYING movies, series, etc. (on our BIG screens, with surround systems and all)

I'm sure many will say something like "yeah, but you don't see/enjoy the whole picture since you don't have the x player, y projector, z screen, and zyx device for tone mapping", but frankly and realistically, not many of us can actually differentiate the gain having much more expensive equipment and calibrations.
Just my honest opinion, don't get mad on me or start explaining and document this to me, I get it, it is better, but is useless as long as we can't actually see the difference making a comparison between A and B, right on the spot, instantly. Humans are very adaptive, therefore our eyes and ears will adapt, just not to throw garbage to them.

EDIT: @Luminated67 has excellently said in his post #122
If you continuously chase the absolute best movie experience then you do two things, spend a sh*t load of money and never become satisfied with what you have.

Just remember why you got into home theatre....

.... to enjoy watching movies at home.:smashin:

P.S. This seems little bit as the "quarrel" between PC and Mac, or iPhone and Android. Yeah, you can't do anything, but you can do what you want, without spending time to make the device work. Just work. Or play. Or whatever...
 
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alebonau

Active Member
I've been reading this thread and got myself interested in many of the devices nominated here (and on other threads too), and then, while watching a movie, I had a bit of a "revelation" (of mine, at my small level, not that bigger ones that changes your life entirely), and will just say it here, without any small shadow of wanting to offend anyone, but maybe helpful for some, maybe even to the thread starter, @alebonau:
- with all those settings and configs and searching to purchase "THE BEST" possible equipment, we spent more hours/days of our time instead of doing the very thing itself - ENJOYING movies, series, etc. (on our BIG screens, with surround systems and all)
straight up ! Thank you for your post ! I actually couldn’t agree more that of prime importance is the enjoying factor - surely why watch movies, concerts, sports mini series etc. on our projectors !

And this is where dynamic tone mapping weighs in pretty heavily though. Trust me when I say I am far from the tweaker or fidler...

yes things do cost and tend to get what pay for... though am sure there is an element of diminishing returns where only person buying can decide for themselves what is the best point to cut in ...

I can only speak from my very own perspective of HDR and projectors.... I can tell you this my introduction was a brutal one... with day one of UHD with a uhd player on release day trying to get things going ! it was a hard slog... even getting the right cable to get signal through :D then finding out my player needed some make shift settings to get something sensible... and the projector needing some settings as well to get something reasonable... it was some effort... and we went further still with custom curves and with players (I went from samsung to oppo to panasonic to oppo & pana player), tone mapping and what not... its been a ride :D

but I can say this from my own experience its only got easier.... with my projector purchase late last year... i only needed do some basics and ended up with something pretty decent ... was it perfect for everything ...no...but pretty damn decent...I only realised how much better it can be though when the dynamic tone mapping update hit...my god it was like having a brand new projector ! it is why i can only so wish more brands incorporate this thing or there are more accessible add on devices. with my projector It only took me jumping in the menu and cursory look. doing some very basic settings I think about maybe 5min of my time in total ? not a hard slog and goodness the results it has blown in my mind how good and i am being totally honest in sayings its been set forget since ! and I watch a ton of movies thats gone through since ...

my experience with epson 9400 was sorta similar in that i helped a couple of friends get one. one was out of box and we did some very basic setup, I showed him the slider and it was even better when the store calibrator came along. yes it does need slider to get best from it still, but I can't say if he uses the slider or just leaves it for what it is. on other hand another friend got a 2nd hand epson 9400...we soon worked out the prior owner had no clue and the thing was a complete mess not only for SDR but HDR as well. took a LOT of mucking about and I still wasnt happy with it but he seems happy enough. yes still the slider approach and he is looking to get a pro calibration done so hopefully in a good place eventually...

look I think as with anything ... this can I beleive be as little involved to quite in-depth detailed and demanding... I guess we are lucky we can even choose given what a mess was to start with :D but hopefully as you say its all to the enjoyment ! I know i wouldn't even go near if it wasnt :)
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
one off calibration is the same price as a PJ calibration. Future Q&A’s cost nothing.




ask the experts. All I know it that my image looks perfect.

I really don’t think anyone else on here goes into calibration details like you do. 99.9% of us want it calibrated and then working. We watch the films and think “wow, this looks amazing”

I have zero interest in buying any calibration gear. I know I don’t need to. Gordon did it earlier this year, with each firmware update, the lumagen just gets better and better.

If you’re not happy with HDR on a PJ, that’s probably because you haven’t seen a recent lumagen with the latest firmware. It looks absolutely outstanding.

I have a calibrated 65” Sony A1. The image on my PJ with lumagen is far superior. I don’t need measuring equipment to tell me what looks better.

Even my 12 year old daughter, last night we watched war for the planet of the apes on 4k in my cinema room. She fee asleep with 20 minutes to go so watched the last part on my tv this morning.

I asked her what was the better picture - she immediately said the PJ is loads better.

That’s all we need, our eyes and opinions, that’s all that really matters.
While I agree with everything you say, stating that the Sony 760 is superior to an OLED other than size is a little rich :)
 

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