Dynamic tone mapping and projectors

mb3195

Distinguished Member
If you continuously chase the absolute best movie experience then you do two things, spend a sh*t load of money and never become satisfied with what you have.

do you know anyone who fits this description? 🤔🤣
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
this is an interesting discussion, am surprised you went a grey screen ? havent you got a dedicated room or have I missed something ? I wouldn't have thought you'd go grey screen with the epson. I have helped two folk with the 9400... not to question no doubt some good advice you are getting from a specialist, but I would have thought you go grey screens more for something like the current crop "4k" DLPs that seem horrendous with contrast ?



this does raise a good point though when comes to HDR and projectors what do grey screens do here for HDR ? do they I wouldn't have thought can increase dynamic range... instead shift the dynamic range to lower contrast ? but you give up pure whites ? for grey ? so do they do anything for HDR ?

what helps dynamic range and HDR ? the basic native contrast of the projector ? dynamic contrast caapabilties ? clearly tone mapping ability ? the room ! this is massive impact... I say this with a room some galaxies away from ideal ... but I can still see contrast difference between say epson to jvc x35 to say x7000, though didnt pick up so much x7000 to N7... ALR screen I would think impact a lot if less than ideal room or poor light control ?(obviously taking the limitations of ALR into account)

interesting stuff...I suspect with HDR given we are peak luminance limited with projectors, contrast is a bigger and more important factor and what we can help there will no doubt help with direct results with how well HDR and dynamic tone mapping works :)
Screen gain dont change the contrast, however your iris setting on the projector do, and with a negative gain screen you need to open up your iris to get the same light on screen as a neutral gain screen, so to gain contrast on projectors with iris you need a positive gain screen, allowing you to close down your iris further.
 

alebonau

Active Member
Ay it's no-where near exciting enough in here, let's have some proper controversy. For fun I just picked up one of these D65 medialight kits and did this to my X7900. Thoughts?!?
View attachment 1382710
I probably wouldn’t recommend a grey screen to a JVC because they already are high contrast projectors but for ones that are below 10k:1 it will boost the black levels as long as it has decent lumens to begin with, so in my opinion to be solely used by DLPs would be a waste. The benefits once up were obvious, I now can watch a movie with my spots on at 2% light output and still get a very decent experience but with lights off the blacks are truly amazing and not at the expense of shadow detail. If viewed in a dark room you’ll see the collar of the bouncer.
interesting ... but why watch with the spots at 2% ? or is that a preference thing ? would it have been cheaper to gt JVC and run existing screen ? rather than expense of new grey screen ? and are you sacrificing ever being able to white and with only grey possible instead ?

Ricky’s Diverse Screen reference grey material is light grey and it’s 0.9 gain so I’m losing very little on actual lumens and it’s colour balance is unaffected so very minor adjustments on brightness.

I’ve compared both pre and post grey screen with the S&M HDR disc and it altered the HDR slider on the Epson one click but obviously colours and blacks are more intense.
its been long while since i have come across grey screens, i truly believed projectors (sans current JVC) have moved on in contrast terms to days when we needed back in years gone by. and so i appreciate your insight and how using and results gained....always learning :)

which still leaves question what does contrast do for HDR ? it impacts contrast ... but does it impact dynamic range for HDR ? I do wonder as I am not sure changes dynamic range... it just moves range ?

ps hit with the 0.9 screen i doubt a bother with light to spare the epson have :)

If you continuously chase the absolute best movie experience then you do two things, spend a sh*t load of money and never become satisfied with what you have.

Just remember why you got into home theatre....

.... to enjoy watching movies at home.:smashin:
oh absolutely ... it is very much enjoying in the home... only reasons am in this :) there are always compromises ... in fact I have been in some mega dollar theatres and there are still compromises ... so just matter of what we do with them I think to best enjoy :)
 

alebonau

Active Member
Screen gain dont change the contrast, however your iris setting on the projector do, and with a negative gain screen you need to open up your iris to get the same light on screen as a neutral gain screen, so to gain contrast on projectors with iris you need a positive gain screen, allowing you to close down your iris further.
ofcourse screen gain wont change contrast but a grey screen (this is not gain we are talking about but the colour of the screen) will make blacks blacker if they weren't in the first place :)

appreciate your thoughts though iris .. but it is a little contradicting I hope realise in what have posted in saying "screen gain dont change contrast" and then posting "so to gain contrast on projectors with iris you need a positive gain screen, allowing you to close down your iris further." but appreciate if what you are talking is just changing iris to gain contrast ... no probs with that...something kris peering suggested to sony... please start fitting a manual iris eg to the laser 790ES that is missing it ... just just cranking the laser for more output or less is not the same thing :)
 

panman40

Distinguished Member
Funny I don’t, is your room similar to mine?

If I have the lights on or even open the door into the next room so there’s some light entering the room I can see a shift which I put down to is superior ability to combat light but in total darkness look remarkably similar, the best way to describe it is more pop and intensity but the colour looks the same.
I’m not sure, although I completely block out any light my room is lit up by the pj, so blacks are better for you now with little light loss ?.
7FA4A11E-B899-484A-9FDE-BA0133045115.jpeg
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
ofcourse screen gain wont change contrast but a grey screen (this is not gain we are talking about but the colour of the screen) will make blacks blacker if they weren't in the first place :)

appreciate your thoughts though iris .. but it is a little contradicting I hope realise in what have posted in saying "screen gain dont change contrast" and then posting "so to gain contrast on projectors with iris you need a positive gain screen, allowing you to close down your iris further." but appreciate if what you are talking is just changing iris to gain contrast ... no probs with that...something kris peering suggested to sony... please start fitting a manual iris eg to the laser 790ES that is missing it ... just just cranking the laser for more output or less is not the same thing :)
Ill expect the SONY 790 to have a manual iris, and same as with positive gain screen putting the lamp in a higher output mode allows you to close the iris and get more contrast, so with projectors you always want the highest lamp mode that alows the iris to close down to desired lightoutput.

On a Epson you have very little contrast gain adjusting the manual iris, but with higher native contrast projectors the contrast to iris relation becomes bigger, so for a JVC it would be a great help to use a 1.3 gain screen to maintain contrast on HDR calibration, vs the same setup with a 1.0 gain screen.
Screen color balance has nothing to do with the gain, its manufacture specifik, you will always want a neutral color screen.

Example with fixed lumen output from the projector.

Neutral gain screen 1.0
black level 0.01fl
White level 15fl
Contrast 1500:1

Negative gain scren 0.8
black level 0,008fl
White level 12fl
Contrast 1500:1
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
How are you finding the backlighting James ?. When I forget to turn off my tvs backlighting I find it really distracting but yours looks ok.
It's interesting, worth the money to have something a bit different to play with.

Without it, my room is really dark (can't see hand etc). However If I hit hide with PJ on, the eye quite rapidly adjusts to the (very good) black floor of the projector (less than 0.001 nits!!!), and so you see the projected black as a grey rectangle on a perfectly black wall. As I have top and bottom masks, if the masks are down to 2.4:1 you actually see the 2.4:1 image as grey, then you can just make out the masks (as they are still "lit" by the projector grey) and then the screen border / black wall.

With it enabled, on pressing hide it is much harder to see anything to do with the screen, and the black in the frame actually looks better than without it, so there is clearly some benefit for the human vision in changing the perception of dark and sequential contrast, and trying to keep the eye in a static adaptation. However I'm not altogether sure I like the effect of having the light at the side of the screen. It is visible in my field of view, and feels a little odd being used to black and the movie image being the only things I can see.

The effect on the absolute PJ black floor appears to be minimal in an A/B , I haven't measured it yet but will try to at some point. The room is very good and because the screen is almost wall to wall it basically just looks like a couple of thin strips of diffuse light emanating from the edges of the screen beyond the velvet mask.

I have noticed with HDR without any bias light that I find having a high brightness setting in the projector leads to many scenes I find annoying once tone mapped, usually because of the contrast from the scene prior to whatever flash comes up. This seems in line with the findings of the guy doing the research presented at SMPTE 2019. To that end my "HDR" settings are limited usually to around 80 nits. I might be more sensitive than others to the brightness swings in finding them annoying.

I think the bias light will allow it to be comfortable to have the eye adapted to higher peak brightnesses and more light out from the projector, allowing the tone mapping to not have to work quite so hard.

There are clearly some reasons to prefer the eye being adapted higher up its range; viewer comfort is one. Perception of colour is another (the eye sees colour and detail better outside the scotopic region). Not missing detail from the eye changing adaptation is perhaps another; though it can be argued it might be artistic intent. However, if the content is being mastered with a 5 nit ambient light level in mind I'm not sure it is an argument that holds.

Anyway, for now it is an interesting experiment and an entertaining trip into slightly unconventional realms.
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
Screen gain dont change the contrast, however your iris setting on the projector do, and with a negative gain screen you need to open up your iris to get the same light on screen as a neutral gain screen, so to gain contrast on projectors with iris you need a positive gain screen, allowing you to close down your iris further.
It does change intrascene (ANSI) contrast in a room with some ambient light reflection.

Just using round numbers here.
You set the PJ to an output level to generate your 50 nits peak on screen. Say the room has 10% reflectance so with a 1.0 screen 5 nits comes back to the screen and raises the black level by a certain amount. If the screen gain is lower then there is the same amount of reflected room light hitting it, but it is reduced in intensity on its way back into the room by the screen, so the screen has directly contributed to an increase in contrast.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
It does change intrascene (ANSI) contrast in a room with some ambient light reflection.

Just using round numbers here.
You set the PJ to an output level to generate your 50 nits peak on screen. Say the room has 10% reflectance so with a 1.0 screen 5 nits comes back to the screen and raises the black level by a certain amount. If the screen gain is lower then there is the same amount of reflected room light hitting it, but it is reduced in intensity on its way back into the room by the screen, so the screen has directly contributed to an increase in contrast.
To some point agree, but now we are talking compromised HT setups, and to those its a bit wild west,
And as the reflected light gets dimmed so do the transmitted light, so hows the relations there-
So your case apply if you think it as fixed lightoutput from the projector, not correcting for loss on a negative gain screen, as soon as you turn up the lightoutput your back to reflecting the same amount into the room, the better solution is to lower the gain on the reflective surfaces around the room, not the screen.
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
To some point agree, but now we are talking compromised HT setups, and to those its a bit wild west,
And as the reflected light gets dimmed so do the transmitted light, so hows the relations there-
So your case apply if you think it as fixed lightoutput from the projector, not correcting for loss on a negative gain screen, as soon as you turn up the lightoutput your back to reflecting the same amount into the room, the better solution is to lower the gain on the reflective surfaces around the room, not the screen.
As I say. If you set the projector output to meet some fixed reference level, then that is the luminance reflected off the screen, it doesn't matter if the screen was grey or white, the same amount of light leaves the screen, hits the room, then bounces back to the screen, where the gain comes into play and reduces the effect for the negative gain screen.

The rest of the light that the screen doesn't reflect due to low gain is turned into heat and absorbed, it doesn't come back into the room.

Apart from the science, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of folk in some rooms preferring the increase in observed contrast from the grey negative gain screen. I don't think they imagined it... Sure, for this to be of benefit, the room is likely compromised and could be better, but not everyone (or perhaps even... anyone?!?!) can have a perfect room. :)
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
As I say. If you set the projector output to meet some fixed reference level, then that is the luminance reflected off the screen, it doesn't matter if the screen was grey or white, the same amount of light leaves the screen, hits the room, then bounces back to the screen, where the gain comes into play and reduces the effect for the negative gain screen.

The rest of the light that the screen doesn't reflect due to low gain is turned into heat and absorbed, it doesn't come back into the room.

Apart from the science, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of folk in some rooms preferring the increase in observed contrast from the grey negative gain screen. I don't think they imagined it... Sure, for this to be of benefit, the room is likely compromised and could be better, but not everyone (or perhaps even... anyone?!?!) can have a perfect room. :)
Right, but whats the end result if you count on ansi contrast maxing out around 200:1 or lower on most projectors, and how bad will the room have to be to benefit from a gray screen, and how do a little ansi contrast change/ effect HDR on projectors.
Ill say its highly individual and subjective to each setup, ill be going with the well treated HT room and a 1.3 gain screen for higher contrast with HDR content. And if the room is not good enough select a different display type where its less of a compromise.
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
Right, but whats the end result if you count on ansi contrast maxing out around 200:1 or lower on most projectors, and how bad will the room have to be to benefit from a gray screen, and how do a little ansi contrast change/ effect HDR on projectors.
Ill say its highly individual and subjective to each setup, ill be going with the well treated HT room and a 1.3 gain screen for higher contrast with HDR content. And if the room is not good enough select a different display type where its less of a compromise.
Yeah for sure, very individual to the room.
I don't doubt that so long as you can live with any of the effects from the positive gain, it can be a good setup for higher contrast HDR (hot spotting, visible texture, etc). Those negatives with JVC also include seeing the bright corners more.
At the other extreme, a friend sent me a sample of his Da-lite HP 2.4 screen, crazy high gain. I'm sure the contrast on that is intense with the iris closed way down. Too much visible issues for me though.
 

davidro77

Standard Member
I’ve been reading through this thread with interest as a newbie to HDR. I’ve only recently upgraded from an HW40 to a 570ES and still in love with the better PQ with upscaled 1080p. I haven’t even tried 4K HDR yet as my receiver doesn’t support it.

So, here’s a question for you guys.... do i

1) not bother spending the £££ on new receiver, cables, possible DTM solution etc and just enjoy the sight of upscaled blu rays
2) buy a new receiver and use HDR as-is
3) as above but buy a panny 820 player and use the hdr to sdr mapping and invest in some 4K ultra hd blu’s
4) as above but buy an hd fury vertex and an Apple TV 4K and try the DV to HDR10 hack
5) save up and upgrade to a 590es, a used 760es or a JVC N7, assume about a 2-3k upgrade
6) save up and blow 4K or however much it is on a lumagen rather than change the PJ.

Thoughts? I had no idea entering the world of 4K would be so complex before I took the plunge with this!
 

bytehoven

Active Member
I’ve been reading through this thread with interest as a newbie to HDR. I’ve only recently upgraded from an HW40 to a 570ES and still in love with the better PQ with upscaled 1080p. I haven’t even tried 4K HDR yet as my receiver doesn’t support it.

So, here’s a question for you guys.... do i

1) not bother spending the £££ on new receiver, cables, possible DTM solution etc and just enjoy the sight of upscaled blu rays
2) buy a new receiver and use HDR as-is
3) as above but buy a panny 820 player and use the hdr to sdr mapping and invest in some 4K ultra hd blu’s
4) as above but buy an hd fury vertex and an Apple TV 4K and try the DV to HDR10 hack
5) save up and upgrade to a 590es, a used 760es or a JVC N7, assume about a 2-3k upgrade
6) save up and blow 4K or however much it is on a lumagen rather than change the PJ.

Thoughts? I had no idea entering the world of 4K would be so complex before I took the plunge with this!
You can simplify the calculation a little if you consider, once you move past your 1080p BD discs, you will need a 4K UHD BD player and Streaming device. Something like the OPPO 203 would work in all of your configurations as would an ATV4K. DV LLDV can be spoofed on both the OPPO and ATV4K.
 

alebonau

Active Member
not bother spending the £££ on new receiver, cables, possible DTM solution etc and just enjoy the sight of upscaled blu rays
definitely an option but will be missing aspects the projector is capable off :)

2) buy a new receiver and use HDR as-is
buying a receiver is really an independent decision... there will be struggles to appreciate 4Khdr across multiple sources otherwise... its really a usability decision ... you can buy a player with dual outs ... but that splits audio and video and can create an unfixable situation of lip synch (it cant be fixed by delays as the delays vary depending on media nad processing required for both audio and video)

3) as above but buy a panny 820 player and use the hdr to sdr mapping and invest in some 4K ultra hd blu’s
this is a really good solution for static tone mapping ... it will at least have projector with statically tone mapped 4k uhd source but works off meta data which can often be wrong... DTM on JVC doesnt work off meta data for this reason. whether you use the tone mapping on this player or not...if planning for 4K uhd this is an excellent player to go for ...

4) as above but buy an hd fury vertex and an Apple TV 4K and try the DV to HDR10 hack
you can but be aware the hdfury can be buggy in handshakes and things...its just another device in the chain...

5) save up and upgrade to a 590es, a used 760es or a JVC N7, assume about a 2-3k upgrade
760ES would be a good step up but wont get you dynamic tone mapping. 590Es I wouldn't waste money on if have the 570es ... it doesnt tone map it just clips the signal for highlights and crushes the signal for blacks...the jvc n7 would bring you quite a few things. dynamic tone mapping, dual iris not only dynamic but can also set peak luminance for benefit of contrast. you also get full p3 coverage with its wide filter for over 100% p3. all glass optics... the 570Es has plastic elements ! if its only a 2-3k upgrade its worth considering...

6) save up and blow 4K or however much it is on a lumagen rather than change the PJ.
if you can afford it ... you could keep the projector you have and buy the lumagen instead...will give you dynamic tone mapping at a level higher than the jvc capable off plus other benefits of the lumagen...

Thoughts? I had no idea entering the world of 4K would be so complex before I took the plunge with this!
I made this move 4-5 years ago and yep its a mine field... cable is another important thing...what you have will be unlikely to cut it ... how long are your cables if upto 9.2m(30ft) the very affordable monoprice premium certified cables will pass full bandwidth 4k uhd and priced cheaply on amazon.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
I’ve been reading through this thread with interest as a newbie to HDR. I’ve only recently upgraded from an HW40 to a 570ES and still in love with the better PQ with upscaled 1080p. I haven’t even tried 4K HDR yet as my receiver doesn’t support it.

So, here’s a question for you guys.... do i

1) not bother spending the £££ on new receiver, cables, possible DTM solution etc and just enjoy the sight of upscaled blu rays
2) buy a new receiver and use HDR as-is
3) as above but buy a panny 820 player and use the hdr to sdr mapping and invest in some 4K ultra hd blu’s
4) as above but buy an hd fury vertex and an Apple TV 4K and try the DV to HDR10 hack
5) save up and upgrade to a 590es, a used 760es or a JVC N7, assume about a 2-3k upgrade
6) save up and blow 4K or however much it is on a lumagen rather than change the PJ.

Thoughts? I had no idea entering the world of 4K would be so complex before I took the plunge with this!
If you can afford it 6 - this will give you the best picture and the lumagen will be with you for a long time even if you upgrade projectors in the future.
 

davidro77

Standard Member
Thanks all for this input!

so I’m thinking things I need to do now - get a receiver (denon 3600h/3700h perhaps), a blu ray player and the Apple TV.

I was just going to wait for ps5 to get something that plays ultra HD’s but clearly it wouldn’t have the HDR tone mapping. Any other benefits aside from that,as the ps5 would be great for 4K gaming and I’ll surely have to get one at some point :)

Oppo 203 seems too pricey if the Panasonic does the same thing for about £250.

HDfury - will Apple TV DV 4k be better via this vs ultra hd blus on the panny? Seems not clear cut from the threads. Aside from the obvious convenience of digital vs acquiring a whole load of physical media

components in the chain - I’ve already noticed a substantial audio delay with the 570 vs my old 40es. I’m having to set as high as 160ms audio sync delay on my receiver with standard blu rays. Is that normal?

lumagen - if it would cost 2-3k to upgrade the PJ and it still wouldn’t solve the problem, feels like that’s the best long term solution. So a 570 with lumagen would still be better than a 760es with the higher brightness of the laser? Anyone know a cheaper way to get a Lumagen, can’t see any that have come up on eBay in last few months
 

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I occassinally get traded in units. You can contact me about that directly. i am surprised you are using that high an audio delay. Sounds like something isn't set correctly to me as i'm sure my other clients ith VW series are not using that high a delay. I've done 570's and Pro's and they look great. The Lumagen also has ability to send audio from any sources plugged in to it out to legacy receivers as it can send audio as a blanked HDMI1.4 signal.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Thanks all for this input!

so I’m thinking things I need to do now - get a receiver (denon 3600h/3700h perhaps), a blu ray player and the Apple TV.

I was just going to wait for ps5 to get something that plays ultra HD’s but clearly it wouldn’t have the HDR tone mapping. Any other benefits aside from that,as the ps5 would be great for 4K gaming and I’ll surely have to get one at some point :)

Oppo 203 seems too pricey if the Panasonic does the same thing for about £250.

HDfury - will Apple TV DV 4k be better via this vs ultra hd blus on the panny? Seems not clear cut from the threads. Aside from the obvious convenience of digital vs acquiring a whole load of physical media

components in the chain - I’ve already noticed a substantial audio delay with the 570 vs my old 40es. I’m having to set as high as 160ms audio sync delay on my receiver with standard blu rays. Is that normal?

lumagen - if it would cost 2-3k to upgrade the PJ and it still wouldn’t solve the problem, feels like that’s the best long term solution. So a 570 with lumagen would still be better than a 760es with the higher brightness of the laser? Anyone know a cheaper way to get a Lumagen, can’t see any that have come up on eBay in last few months
I would recommend you to go out experience all this HDR adventure before buying into it, i have just about everything i can think off to support HDR, and at the end of the day i dont use it, what i do use is good upscaling from 1080P to 4K, and for the sony the lumagen is the best solution for that.
You also need to concider that Lumagen or Mad Vr is a hole hobby by itself, it takes quite a bit of time to get the full understanding of these devices. Often there is default settings that is not desired.

Its a bit like with the soundtrack side of things, more channels and never ending higher resolution, however soundtracks have never been more compressed and boring than they are now, back in laserdisc days you had crazy dynamic that would make you turn up to hear the dialog, and the next second you would find your speaker drivers on the floor, and you would than go out but bigger speakers and amps to handle it., now we buy more flimsy small speakers and cramp them into small spaces, run all the soundtrack true a blender, just to make sure nothing is preserved, in the name of room correction. and most people is about to jump the same wagon to blend the image to get HDR which is tecnically lower dynamic range than you have seen in a long time on a projector.

Its all highly subjective in both cases, and nobody can tell you whats right or wrong, personally i like to have a reference, i dont take the next step before i have tested the new solution for a significant amount of time and found it to perform better on multiple parameters, there is often parameters that gets worse, thats the compromise, make the best compromise.

So for now im still stuck with a ol Denon AVC A1D, yes the followers are all piled up in the storage room, the biggest one must be the Denon AVC A1XVA, what a horrible bad surround device, but my god its big and impressive to look at.

Got the JVC N7, have the OPPO 203, different Panasonic players, and at the end of the day i i just stick a Blu Ray into the player upscale it in the OPPO and enjoy how the image looks calibrated perfectly to D65 Rec 709, the 4K panels and way they update / paint the image is soo much more organic than all other digital projectors i have seen, HDR, been experimenting a-b testing quite a few movies, been trying to find the right settings, some scenes do actually look wow, no idea if they are surposed to look like that as calibrating HDR is a bit of a mess, i always end up finding that i compromise more than i win with HDR, and some movies are actually mastered quite funky in HDR.

I never bought into the Lumagen Pro, have 2 older Lumagen radiance processors, great processors, but they also come with compromises, there is no free lunch, you give some to get some, most people dont even notice what they give so it dont have to be a problem, but multiple devices in series is going to have some unwanted effect.

If you have the money to play with go buy it all and get your own hands on experience, you will likely not know the real answer until you have been there.

One thing is sure, its all put in place to make you wonder, and to trick your curiosity, making you buy yet another projector, player, surround receiver, and the same old same movies over and over again, and it wont stop here, in 2 years time most of the equipment will be outdated and worthless, and your asking the same questions again, marketing these days really got out heads spinning.
 

alebonau

Active Member
was just going to wait for ps5 to get something that plays ultra HD’s but clearly it wouldn’t have the HDR tone mapping. Any other benefits aside from that,as the ps5 would be great for 4K gaming and I’ll surely have to get one at some point :)
if the ps5 is like the ps4 ...as a ultra uhd player it makes a great gaming console :D definitely get one... but not a great dedicated player and yeah wont do the static tone mapping the pana would.

Oppo 203 seems too pricey if the Panasonic does the same thing for about £250.
oppo tone mapping i found useless. I dont think oppo really got time to finish it.. they are no longer anyways ...its a great player if planning to feed something like lumagen but if want player static tone mapping the pana is it ...

HDfury - will Apple TV DV 4k be better via this vs ultra hd blus on the panny? Seems not clear cut from the threads. Aside from the obvious convenience of digital vs acquiring a whole load of physical media

components in the chain - I’ve already noticed a substantial audio delay with the 570 vs my old 40es. I’m having to set as high as 160ms audio sync delay on my receiver with standard blu rays. Is that normal?
unfortunately without dynamic tone mapping in the projector you are going to need both the ATV and player to both do this ...

if you are splitting audio and video on hdmi... keep in mind then you are open to lip synch as its the video that keeps the audio synched...and with them split depending on the processing on each with delay one vs the other ...its also going to vary...
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
You also need to concider that Lumagen or Mad Vr is a hole hobby by itself, it takes quite a bit of time to get the full understanding of these devices. Often there is default settings that is not desired.
He won’t need to worry about this if he gets @Gordon @ Convergent AV in to setup and calibrate. Once this is done, it’s a switch on and switch off process.

Lumagens make a HUGE difference to HDR.

@davidro77 if you wanted to see how effective it can be with a Sony 760 (image quality won’t be too different to your existing Sony), I’m always happy to demo. You would walk away asking me for Gordon’s phone number......
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
He won’t need to worry about this if he gets @Gordon @ Convergent AV in to setup and calibrate. Once this is done, it’s a switch on and switch off process.

Lumagens make a HUGE difference to HDR.

@davidro77 if you wanted to see how effective it can be with a Sony 760 (image quality won’t be too different to your existing Sony), I’m always happy to demo. You would walk away asking me for Gordon’s phone number......
You need to pay someone to set it up, and call someone every time you need to change something in that setup, and these days your likely to change streaming box, player or projector once a year, so its all about what kind of guy you are, if your the one who have enough money to buy both devices and hire a pro to do all the work, no problem.
Nothings free, and i guess most of us in this thread will easy have 50K£ + to burn on boy toys, but we still need to consider that is not the case for everybody. And there is no right and wrong here only personal preferences and budgets.

Also if you want to go all the way, MAD VR is the ultimate DTM.
 
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Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Ups.
 
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mb3195

Distinguished Member
up, and call someone every time you need to change something in that setup, and these days your likely to change streaming box
this isn’t true.

you don’t need to change anything when you introduce something new into the equation other than if you change PJ, which you’d likely pay (maybe not you) for a professional calibration anyway.

Gordon has been to mine on a few occasions, but only when I change PJ’s and one time I changed my screen. Never for anything else.
 

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