Dynamic tone mapping and projectors

bandyka

Well-known Member
Bandyka... your comments echo my experience completely. I know some of our friends are irritated by the sharing of this alternative reality, but i have found the impact to be astonishing.

When Santa can deliver this experience in a form closer to 100" and at a cost below $10k, projectors better have gotten their act together.

And don't get me started about what gaming feels like. OMG. I can't wait to replay Mass Effect and the new Cyberpunk 2077.
Yep, I am pretty certain if anyone experienced it in a PROPER room that is truly pitch black day and night would get what we are saying. I think the Wall could be the solution for us in the next couple of years as MiniLED will start to make sense and come down in price.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
getting back to projectors ...

95" is possible with projectors and decent HDR... I run smaller 92" but sitting at THX spec for immersion... any smaller is not realistic in my setup...just wont be immersive enough. I could go a tad larger ... 100" however on topic I do feel HDR demands luminance to certain extent with projectors. I have found myself around 30FL or 100nits seems to work well for HDR and set for get with JVCs basic dynamic tone mapping - I havent had to touch it since the update late last year.. and i watch a lot of movies...jsut about everything released on UHD since and also via other sources eg streaming or gaming.

I beleive kris deering is on record saying can get away for HDR with about 22FL but takes some work in calibration and also with dynamic tone mapping need some intervention...

re contrast dynamic tone mapping not going to replace that... contrast is contrast. if want more contrast have to get something with greater native contrast nothing replaces that in my experience . Contrast certainly has a part to play. significant part. more so than peak luminance in my opinion with projectors... its like the noise floor in audio... or black floor which i think is better term when comes to projectors ... the lower the black floor the more dynamic range have to work within for HDR...

you can certainly run dual screens if prefer HDR on TV vs SDR on projector ...but we are talking projectors here and particularly dynamic tone mapping for best results with HDR for 4k uhd :)
Yes there is the size thing as well and if I can fill the entire screen the better. One other reason why I shrink it currently is because the pixel gap on the EPSON is too large and I can clearly see them even in 4K mode and at about 95" (and that is the FOW as a 77" :) :) )it becomes nice and smooth. Yes also correct on the black floor, the lower it is the better the HDR experience obviously so DTM can't really fix that hence again shinking the screen helps as I can close down the iris to about -15 which gives me nice depth to the image while using DTM.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
That changed everything size did not matter much anymore as all I saw was the actual content NOT the screen or its boundaries so it was a genuinely floating image which a projector can never achieve no matter how good.
well this isn’t true at all.

you’ve Clearly never seen a PJ in a PROPER bat cave.

You can’t see anything other than the image in my room and I mean nothing. A floating image is achievable with the right black velvet covering the ceilings and walls along with the right carpet.
 
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alebonau

Active Member
Yes there is the size thing as well and if I can fill the entire screen the better. One other reason why I shrink it currently is because the pixel gap on the EPSON is too large and I can clearly see them even in 4K mode and at about 95" (and that is the FOW as a 77" :) :) )it becomes nice and smooth. Yes also correct on the black floor, the lower it is the better the HDR experience obviously so DTM can't really fix that hence again shinking the screen helps as I can close down the iris to about -15 which gives me nice depth to the image while using DTM.
good to hear have got those things working for you :)

yes with contrast its something someone highlighted on AVS you can have these light canons beaming away at eye blinding luminance but whats the use if theres no black floor to speak off :D just plain luminance isnt the answer with HDR.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
well this isn’t true at all.

you’ve Clearly never seen a PJ in a PROPER bat cave.

You can’t see anything other than the image in my room and I mean nothing. A floating image is achievable with the right black velvet covering the ceilings and walls along with the right carpet.
Completely agree, once the room is done beyond your seating position all you see is this floating image in front of you.

Something even your local cinema can’t achieve.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Yes there is the size thing as well and if I can fill the entire screen the better. One other reason why I shrink it currently is because the pixel gap on the EPSON is too large and I can clearly see them even in 4K mode and at about 95" (and that is the FOW as a 77" :) :) )it becomes nice and smooth. Yes also correct on the black floor, the lower it is the better the HDR experience obviously so DTM can't really fix that hence again shinking the screen helps as I can close down the iris to about -15 which gives me nice depth to the image while using DTM.
I’m curious as to how close you are sitting from your 95” screen to see the pixel gap. I know I’m in my fifties so eyesight isn’t what it use to be but even my kids and numerous people who have seen my setup can’t see it.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
well this isn’t true at all.

you’ve Clearly never seen a PJ in a PROPER bat cave.

You can’t see anything other than the image in my room and I mean nothing. A floating image is achievable with the right black velvet covering the ceilings and walls along with the right carpet.
Well you must have a different set of eyes then mine and a PJ with true blacks ;)

You have clearly no idea what I am talking about.

total darkness.jpg


Melodia.JPG


A true floating image means you DO NOT see anything apart from the outline of CONTENT even if its 5% of the screen this is not achievable with anything other then OLED. My X9500 had the best contrast in the universe yet it couldn't do it. I'll leave it there.
 
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alebonau

Active Member
I’m curious as to how close you are sitting from your 95” screen to see the pixel gap. I know I’m in my fifties so eyesight isn’t what it use to be but even my kids and numerous people who have seen my setup can’t see it.
the epson are quite susceptible for seeing the gap.. this is pixel shift jvc x7000 on other hand with a 50mm lens on full frame camera as close as lens can get to focus to the screen for the "lucy eye test" :D ... you cant see the pixel gap... the native JVC N series are the same...

IMG_3246.jpeg
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
I’m curious as to how close you are sitting from your 95” screen to see the pixel gap. I know I’m in my fifties so eyesight isn’t what it use to be but even my kids and numerous people who have seen my setup can’t see it.
About 3 meters and can see them especially on computer graphics but movies as well if I look for it.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Well you must have a different set of eyes then mine and a PJ with true blacks ;)

You have clearly no idea what I am talking about.

View attachment 1382370

View attachment 1382371
I can see lots in your room that isn’t black. The top picture doesn’t prove anything, but your bottom picture does.
you said a PJ can’t produce a floating picture with nothing else in view.

It can - you just need to treat the room right.

I wasn’t talking about the blacks, everyone knows OLEDs are far superior here.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
the epson are quite susceptible for seeing the gap.. this is pixel shift jvc x7000 on other hand with a 50mm lens on full frame camera as close as lens can get to focus to the screen for the "lucy eye test" :D ... you cant see the pixel gap... the native JVC N series are the same...

View attachment 1382369
Yes its only the lamp based EPSON that have the large gap, even the LS I had was much smother.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
I can see lots in your room that isn’t black. The top picture doesn’t prove anything, but your bottom picture does.
you said a PJ can’t produce a floating picture with nothing else in view.

It can - you just need to treat the room right.

I wasn’t talking about the blacks, everyone knows OLEDs are far superior here.
Yes the screen is white apart from that its all treated black.

As I said I'll leave it there I know what I am seeing and what is physically possible no point trying to convince that laws of physics and light can be bent.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Yes the screen is white apart from that its all treated black.

As I said I'll leave it there I know what I am seeing and what is physically possible no point trying to convince that laws of physics and light can be bent.
you are talking nonsense, what has physics got do so with it.

Sorry to say, but your room isn’t that dark.

This is my room - absolute black hole black - taken from my seating position

3A11A12B-1EAC-4E5C-AB60-3A104D05C3B0.jpeg


and this is zoomed out to show all of my walls and ceilings

AF032136-6112-4390-AAA9-7789D0149CAD.jpeg


You say it’s not possible to have a floating screen effect on a PJ. It is!

If you don’t believe me I can point you to around 15 people who have seen my room and will testify how dark it is. I know you know @Gordon @ Convergent AV , ask him, he’ll tell you. 😎

I see you’ve edited your previous post, showing a complete black image being projected. Ok, in this rare instance where I have a logo menu up, or maybe a space shot with stars, then yes I can see your point, although even then, it still does look like a floating screen with lesser blacks being projected within an abyss of black space.
 
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Luminated67

Distinguished Member
About 3 meters and can see them especially on computer graphics but movies as well if I look for it.
That's beyond me because I had a mate's Sony 360 over to compare and neither of us could see anything from even 7ft away, in fact it was only from this distance that the superior resolution of the Sony's Native 4K started to tell.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
you are talking nonsense, what has physics got do so with it.

Sorry to say, but your room isn’t that dark.

This is my room - absolute black hole black - taken from my seating position

View attachment 1382375

and this is zoomed out to show all of my walls and ceilings

View attachment 1382376

You say it’s not possible to have a floating screen effect on a PJ. It is!

If you don’t believe me I can point you to around 15 people who have seen my room and will testify how dark it is. I know you know @Gordon @ Convergent AV , ask him, he’ll tell you. 😎

I see you’ve edited your previous post, showing a complete black image being projected. Ok, in this rare instance where I have a logo menu up, or maybe a space shot with stars, then yes I can see your point, although even then, it still does look like a floating screen with lesser blacks being projected within an abyss of black space.
I took a similar photo only I stood well back beyond my seating to get the projector in the shoot.

4CB3F5D5-6CDB-4327-A3EC-5DDEA3B3563F.jpeg


And now that the screen is cinemascope all you see is the image on the screen without the borders, it truly does float in front of you.
 
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bandyka

Well-known Member
you are talking nonsense, what has physics got do so with it.

Sorry to say, but your room isn’t that dark.

This is my room - absolute black hole black - taken from my seating position

View attachment 1382375

and this is zoomed out to show all of my walls and ceilings

View attachment 1382376

You say it’s not possible to have a floating screen effect on a PJ. It is!

If you don’t believe me I can point you to around 15 people who have seen my room and will testify how dark it is. I know you know @Gordon @ Convergent AV , ask him, he’ll tell you. 😎

I see you’ve edited your previous post, showing a complete black image being projected. Ok, in this rare instance where I have a logo menu up, or maybe a space shot with stars, then yes I can see your point, although even then, it still does look like a floating screen with lesser blacks being projected within an abyss of black space.
It's not a contest mate. Physics means unless a PJ is capable of shutting down its light at pixel level it will emit light end of story.

I don't think you get what I am saying take a photo like the one I posted with panny player where 70% of the image is black do a high exposure photo and you'll see the border of the screen.

Especially with Sony 760, the reason why I did not get that PJ was because the black levels were too elevated for my liking.
 
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mb3195

Distinguished Member
It's not a contest mate. Physics means unless a PJ is capable of shutting down its light at pixel level it will emit light end of story.

I don't think you get what I am saying take a photo like the one I posted with panny player where 70% of the image is black do a high exposure photo and you'll see the border of the screen.

Especially with Sony 760, the reason why I did not get that PJ was because the black levels were too elevated for my liking.
I edited my post to say this. Yes, on the 1% of times where I have a completely black screen, I do agree that it is clear where the blacks meet black, you can see a border where the physical screen ends, but realistically in movies this seldom happens, other than space films and some night shots.

Sony did a big firmware update last year, they improved the contrast I believe, not sure whether you saw one before or after this?

I actually prefer the blacks to my old JVC 7900 - they seem more stable and consistent with better shadow detail and less crush.

Obviously the x9900 will have better blacks, I’m not denying that, I’m just comparing it to my old 7900.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
It's not a contest mate. Physics means unless a PJ is capable of shutting down its light at pixel level it will emit light end of story.

I don't think you get what I am saying take a photo like the one I posted with panny player where 70% of the image is black do a high exposure photo and you'll see the border of the screen.

Especially with Sony 760, the reason why I did not get that PJ was because the black levels were too elevated for my liking.
I can't knock anyone preferring an OLED over a projector when it comes to black levels, projectors can't complete PERIOD. That said I personally dislike watching any TV be that OLED etc because I always see the shine coming off the screen and that bugs me no end, OK for general watching but I'll stick to the projector for serious movie watching.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
I can't knock anyone preferring an OLED over a projector when it comes to black levels, projectors can't complete PERIOD. That said I personally dislike watching any TV be that OLED etc because I always see the shine coming off the screen and that bugs me no end, OK for general watching but I'll stick to the projector for serious movie watching.
fair enough, yes its a very tough call for sure.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
I edited my post to say this. Yes, on the 1% of times where I have a completely black screen, I do agree that it is clear where the blacks meet black, you can see a border where the physical screen ends, but realistically in movies this seldom happens, other than space films and some night shots.

Sony did a big firmware update last year, they improved the contrast I believe, not sure whether you saw one before or after this?

I actually prefer the blacks to my old JVC 7900 - they seem more stable and consistent with better shadow detail and less crush.

Obviously the x9900 will have better blacks, I’m not denying that, I’m just comparing it to my old 7900.
Yes I understand, I saw a 760 first up right when it got released and compared it in a cave to the JVC Z1 7900, 9900 so that is my basis of comparison I also understand it received updates since. And yes that floating image is great that your referring to. My priorities in terms of cinematic image have changed and its a hard pill to swallow for ones who got accustomed to projection for years I understand that. I did want to challenge myself to have a completely non-biased view which I did and I simply just prefer the OLED type of image these days and this is mainly due to HDR standards which projectors just can't properly handle regardless of DTM. SDR I prefer on the large screen for sure. My room will be a dual setup I am pretty sure.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Yes I understand, I saw a 760 first up right when it got released and compared it in a cave to the JVC Z1 7900, 9900 so that is my basis of comparison I also understand it received updates since. And yes that floating image is great that your referring to. My priorities in terms of cinematic image have changed and its a hard pill to swallow for ones who got accustomed to projection for years I understand that. I did want to challenge myself to have a completely non-biased view which I did and I simply just prefer the OLED type of image these days and this is mainly due to HDR standards which projectors just can't properly handle regardless of DTM. SDR I prefer on the large screen for sure. My room will be a dual setup I am pretty sure.
nothing wrong with you having a preference mate, the world would be boring if we all felt them same 👍🏻
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Is it just me or har this thread turned into a OLED vs Projectors ? What happened to dynamic tone mapping and projectors?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Is it just me or har this thread turned into a OLED vs Projectors ? What happened to dynamic tone mapping and projectors?
I think this will always happen simply because OLEDs handle HDR so much better than a projector.

I wished there was an option to get the 4K and the wider colour range without the need for the HDR. The Panny does SDR2020 but I don’t think it’s the best solution out there.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
I think this will always happen simply because OLEDs handle HDR so much better than a projector.

I wished there was an option to get the 4K and the wider colour range without the need for the HDR. The Panny does SDR2020 but I don’t think it’s the best solution out there.
Its called Madvr. Or simply get an HD Fury.
 

Steven

Senior Moderator
A forum section moderator will be along in due course to review and tidy

Many thanks
 

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