Dynamic tone mapping and projectors

bandyka

Well-known Member
Had a test with 5 different 4K HDR vs Blueray films today together with a friend. Both film lovers and both projector users, Films tested: Greatest Showman, Gemini Man, Prometheus, MIB international, and Lucy. Compared also the same scenes on Blueray. Every scene was watched 2 times.

We first watched Blueray calibrated to SDR 16FL D65 Gamma 2,4 Contrast 89K:1, HDR Calibrated with 135Nits/39FL, D65 46K:1 with filter BT2020/P3.

Mad VR just does a so extremely good job that I can actually say that I can start to like HDR on projectors.
Blueray looked very different, not bad at all but actually some boring compared.
We both had the same feeling. But also important to remember that HDR is mastered totally different.

But hard to say this, 4K HDR won with a big margin on the NX9 compared to Blueray with the same scene compared.
My own problem is that I know that SDR is 100% correct and I can't say that with HDR. But looked stunning.
Yep , I can't watch anything without Madvr. Its a whole different level.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I genuinely have never compared Bluray vs 4K side by side to see which I prefer with my more basic setup. Will have to try it sometime because with two players it would be dead easy.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Would MadVR be classed as a form of enhancement? ;) Enhancement isn’t for everyone but it’s great we have the option don’t you think. :smashin:

You guys are pushing me down the HTPC + MadVR route.
Judging by your question you haven't seen it yet. If a well setup madvr rig doesn't give you the woow factor nothing will. As I said before it will give you that contrasty sharp, smooth look and feel and much more without looking processed like the EPSON built in enhancement but it seems you want to stick with the vanilla EPSON one so that's kool but you don't know what you are leaving on the table.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Judging by your question you haven't seen it yet. If a well setup madvr rig doesn't give you the woow factor nothing will. As I said before it will give you that contrasty sharp, smooth look and feel and much more without looking processed like the EPSON built in enhancement but it seems you want to stick with the vanilla EPSON one so that's kool but you don't know what you are leaving on the table.
I have to figure out a way of having the PC in the room and feeding it’s cables to the other room behind the screen. All I need to buy to have a HTPC up and running is a display card and a bluray read/writer that takes UHD discs.

Is a GeForce RTX 2060 a decent enough card to do all I need?
 
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bandyka

Well-known Member
I have to figure out a way of having the PC in the room and feeding it’s cables to the other room behind the screen. All I need to buy to have a HTPC up and running is a display card and a bluray read/writer that takes UHD discs.

Is a GeForce RTX 2060 a decent enough card to do all I need?
That's correct. Yes I just a got a 2060 Super card and it does madvr nearly maxed out in 4K. Glorious.
 

Diddern

Active Member
What is important to understand here. New 4K UHD HDR is mastered completely different from BD. Correct tone mapping will be different than BD because mastered completely differently. So will not be the same and won't look the same.
If it does something is wrong. I don't know Lumagen much with tone mapping so can't talk about that. But have friends that have tested together with MadVr and some say that and some say this. I can only say that tone mapping in UHD BD players is not in the same league as MadVR. That I have tested and can confirm. I have the Panna 420 and had an oppo 203 I sold that instantly after seeing MadVr.

I will say the biggest difference was on Blueray. UHD was completely mind-blowing. Then how to show HDR on a projector. That actually struggles with this because of max light output and native contrast in the loop.

HDR will be best with High dynamic range projectors and displays then HIGH native contrast and good Ansicontrast. I will say a minimum 20K:1 and higher, ANSI Contrast alone will not be mind-blowing more head pain.
But will for sure look good, but the low end will look washed out, black will be grey. The higher the native contrast black will be more black in low APL scenes and dynamics will look even more HDR :)

Also important to know that even an old JVC will look stunning with HDR with MadVr. Have seen JVC X7900 that crush other newer 4K projector brands with high margin. Just as an illustration 1 and 2 % ire on a high contrast projector will be the same as 5% ire in a low contrast projector. So BIG difference in how you experience this. In brighter scenes, not a big difference at all.
But tone mapping is a sort of gamma manipulation as Stridsvognen talks about and true.

Audio I don't notice much difference, but hear many talk about that using a program together with MadVr. I will not go there. I have enough pain with using a computer at all.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
What is important to understand here. New 4K UHD HDR is mastered completely different from BD. Correct tone mapping will be different than BD because mastered completely differently. So will not be the same and won't look the same.
If it does something is wrong. I don't know Lumagen much with tone mapping so can't talk about that. But have friends that have tested together with MadVr and some say that and some say this. I can only say that tone mapping in UHD BD players is not in the same league as MadVR. That I have tested and can confirm. I have the Panna 420 and had an oppo 203 I sold that instantly after seeing MadVr.

I will say the biggest difference was on Blueray. UHD was completely mind-blowing. Then how to show HDR on a projector. That actually struggles with this because of max light output and native contrast in the loop.

HDR will be best with High dynamic range projectors and displays then HIGH native contrast and good Ansicontrast. I will say a minimum 20K:1 and higher, ANSI Contrast alone will not be mind-blowing more head pain.
But will for sure look good, but the low end will look washed out, black will be grey. The higher the native contrast black will be more black in low APL scenes and dynamics will look even more HDR :)

Also important to know that even an old JVC will look stunning with HDR with MadVr. Have seen JVC X7900 that crush other newer 4K projector brands with high margin. Just as an illustration 1 and 2 % ire on a high contrast projector will be the same as 5% ire in a low contrast projector. So BIG difference in how you experience this. In brighter scenes, not a big difference at all.
But tone mapping is a sort of gamma manipulation as Stridsvognen talks about and true.

Audio I don't notice much difference, but hear many talk about that using a program together with MadVr. I will not go there. I have enough pain with using a computer at all.
Yeah HdR On projection really needs a big contrast number to emulate speculate highlight brightness differences
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Audio I don't notice much difference, but hear many talk about that using a program together with MadVr. I will not go there. I have enough pain with using a computer at all.
I feel your pain, I'm so not a computer type guy even though I use one for multiple hours per day.
 

Diddern

Active Member
I feel your pain, I'm so not a computer type guy even though I use one for multiple hours per day.
Really hate it, but for the little extra on my Nx9, it's worth it.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Really hate it, but for the little extra on my Nx9, it's worth it.
I think if you have a basic understanding of calibration and average computer skills then MadVR is a real benefit.

I'm screwed on both counts. :blush: :laugh:

Joking aside, I am kind of shocked that even you who has the JVC and it's Frame by frame DTM is noticing a huge difference.
 

Diddern

Active Member
I think if you have a basic understanding of calibration and average computer skills then MadVR is a real benefit.

I'm screwed on both counts. :blush: :laugh:

Joking aside, I am kind of shocked that even you who has the JVC and it's Frame by frame DTM is noticing a huge difference.
Also, work as a calibrator professionally, so I really hope that I know the basics. hehe
MadVr does it more correctly in every scene, but when the new firmware arrives too the N series soon, it then might not be so big a difference. We have to wait and see.
But I'm going to use MadVr anyway. Even if I continue to hate computers. lol
 
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Luminated67

Distinguished Member
MadVr does it more correctly in every scene, but when the new firmware arrives too the N series soon, it might not be so big a difference. But I'm going to use MadVr anyway. Even if I continue to hate computers. lol
Maybe I'm wrong here but once you have set up MadVR isn't it pretty much set and forget?
 

Diddern

Active Member
Maybe I'm wrong here but once you have set up MadVR isn't it pretty much set and forget?
Yes correct.
But then comes driver uppdates and all sh*tt stuff.
My comeputer will not see the internet again hehe

now works so hope it stays this way lol
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
HDR will be best with High dynamic range projectors and displays then HIGH native contrast and good Ansicontrast. I will say a minimum 20K:1 and higher, ANSI Contrast alone will not be mind-blowing more head pain.
But will for sure look good, but the low end will look washed out, black will be grey. The higher the native contrast black will be more black in low APL scenes and dynamics will look even more HDR :)
Where are these high dynamic range projectors though?
I honestly don't class the current range of JVC units as having "good" ANSI contrast, and I say that as owner of an X7900 in a batcave room. Really it is best described as "mediocre". And of course while no-one spends time watching content that looks anything like the ANSI chart, the ANSI value plus the on/off plus a few intermediate APL contrast points allow you to plot the performance of the display through the APL range.
Sony don't really achieve black enough without resorting to laser dimming, but they do have better ANSI performance, and interestingly the crossover of contrast performance for example the X7900 vs 760ES is around 4%, which is lower than the APL typical for SDR movies.
All of these leaves HDR pretty "damp" for projection for me. The projectors that can better display a dynamic image with well preserved darker areas on the screen are not necessarily the ones that can present a good black, and really, both are needed.
 

Diddern

Active Member
Where are these high dynamic range projectors though?
I honestly don't class the current range of JVC units as having "good" ANSI contrast, and I say that as owner of an X7900 in a batcave room. Really it is best described as "mediocre". And of course while no-one spends time watching content that looks anything like the ANSI chart, the ANSI value plus the on/off plus a few intermediate APL contrast points allow you to plot the performance of the display through the APL range.
Sony don't really achieve black enough without resorting to laser dimming, but they do have better ANSI performance, and interestingly the crossover of contrast performance for example the X7900 vs 760ES is around 4%, which is lower than the APL typical for SDR movies.
All of these leaves HDR pretty "damp" for projection for me. The projectors that can better display a dynamic image with well preserved darker areas on the screen are not necessarily the ones that can present a good black, and really, both are needed.
Agree here. To me, my JVC NX9 is the best total image. I have 250:1 with ish 80000:1 on-off, calibrated and that is enough for me.

And what else is better for my use 110-inch screen?
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Where are these high dynamic range projectors though?
I honestly don't class the current range of JVC units as having "good" ANSI contrast, and I say that as owner of an X7900 in a batcave room. Really it is best described as "mediocre". And of course while no-one spends time watching content that looks anything like the ANSI chart, the ANSI value plus the on/off plus a few intermediate APL contrast points allow you to plot the performance of the display through the APL range.
Sony don't really achieve black enough without resorting to laser dimming, but they do have better ANSI performance, and interestingly the crossover of contrast performance for example the X7900 vs 760ES is around 4%, which is lower than the APL typical for SDR movies.
All of these leaves HDR pretty "damp" for projection for me. The projectors that can better display a dynamic image with well preserved darker areas on the screen are not necessarily the ones that can present a good black, and really, both are needed.
i have measured from 90-1 to 210:1 on different JVC projectors i have here, so they can indeed be quite low, i find that when it reach 170-200:1 its enough, my SONY had around 350:1, i quite a difference from 130:1 to 350:1 but can not really detect much difference from 200:1 to 350:1. Just another JVC tolerance thing in play with the JVC lottery.
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
i have measured from 90-1 to 210:1 on different JVC projectors i have here, so they can indeed be quite low, i find that when it reach 170-200:1 its enough, my SONY had around 350:1, i quite a difference from 130:1 to 350:1 but can not really detect much difference from 200:1 to 350:1. Just another JVC tolerance thing in play with the JVC lottery.
I measured a bit over 200:1 on my X7900 in my room here for ANSI, which is OK but not really close to "enough" for HDR to mean anything. Nothing changed with the advent of HDR content, so it's not like the dynamic range anyone can experience in their theatre has improved (in fact, by many standards it has declined in the latest projectors when you look at where DLP was and now is, and I think there was also suggestion from some who have measured that the N series JVC got worse than good X series).
My own X7900 measured 297:1 at lens full open iris, and 253:1 fully closed, with very tight measurement in centre of ANSI targets. Of course doesn't tell the full story of the blooming at the edges of the black ANSI squares etc...
I'm starting to sound like a grumpy old man though, so I'll just go and sit in a corner with my bag or Wurther's Originals...
 

Diddern

Active Member
I measured a bit over 200:1 on my X7900 in my room here for ANSI, which is OK but not really close to "enough" for HDR to mean anything. Nothing changed with the advent of HDR content, so it's not like the dynamic range anyone can experience in their theatre has improved (in fact, by many standards it has declined in the latest projectors when you look at where DLP was and now is, and I think there was also suggestion from some who have measured that the N series JVC got worse than good X series).
My own X7900 measured 297:1 at lens full open iris, and 253:1 fully closed, with very tight measurement in centre of ANSI targets. Of course doesn't tell the full story of the blooming at the edges of the black ANSI squares etc...
I'm starting to sound like a grumpy old man though, so I'll just go and sit in a corner with my bag or Wurther's Originals...
I had the RS600, X7500, and X7900 all around the same numbers you say here. JVC claims around 350:1. Also on the new units, I just wonder how they measure it haha.

The N5 and N7 do not go over 250:1 rather under. I have tested 2 NX9 and the first had 155:1 fully open. And bounced some up and down in all 12 fields. The second one 348:1 fully open. Also completely linear in all 12 fields. With maybe a 1-4:1 difference. 249:1 calibrated with iris -9

So actually big differences unit to unit. It seems that I have been lucky with my unit, thank God for that. It costs a sh*t load.

When it comes to this ANSI contrast it's like said important to have both. I personally have seen that up to 800-1000:1 ANSI and contrast around 5000:1 ON OFF don't match high contrast with 150:1. It only looks better at ANSI patterns or the measurement APL patterns with all the black and white. 1% 5% 10% and so on. It's never like that in a movie. Just look at a space scene with white stars and a spaceship. A high contrast unit crushes the high ANSI projector so big. The difference is so small in extreme "ANSI" film scenes that it's almost hard to see the difference. In the dark end, it's just LOL. But when you have an 80000 dollar projector you don't like to see that ANSI doesn't matter that much. To a 20000dollar projector. If someone knows a film scene that will look better on an 800-1000:1 ANSI let me know. I can easily check it and I have no problem saying I was wrong.

If you had seen it you will all question the APL 1% 5% 10% and so on. The point is that no film material is like this. And also because of the JVC streaking, this measures bad. But yes the test showed that the unit with high ANSI would win. But in reality No.

Yes, also important to say that we found scenes that looked just a bit better, but so little that when you did not know what projector that was on, you did not see it that easy. Here we talk up to 1000:1 compared with 250:1

Both were calibrated to 16 FL 2,4 D65 gamma 230 inc screen. With MadVr for SDR and HDR.

So here it comes more to how big screen. To use an NX9 with 250-300 inch NO WAY other alternative.
 

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