Dynamic tone mapping and projectors

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Well if it isn't washed out on yours something is very different. Contrast and brightness is neutral as always, those should not need to be touched unless something is out of place, similar to keystone.

Well please look at all these images, three different movies all with the Slider set between 4 and 6 can’t recall the exact setting but definitely no lower than 6.

C5FA43FA-2FC3-49EE-9F8B-D6E2A598112B.jpeg
94A0B599-54D7-4CB5-A7C5-AA23BCE945F0.jpeg
BE08F400-9B4F-4F52-A36B-E4DBA1E8E1A5.jpeg
E6A597E8-9328-467A-9473-D2E713361A36.jpeg
8F384FF9-B35A-4C2B-89BD-12EAF079E1C3.jpeg
5F5955C6-7F0F-4625-9F70-6C255E36A68E.jpeg


In your honest opinion does any look washed out?

P.S. Both brightness and contrast set in the middle at 50.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
When comparing slide settings, are you using the same tone-mapped Panasonic 420 player settings?

Yes, the Panny Optimiser ON, all other setting neutral.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Yes, the Panny Optimiser ON, all other setting neutral.
Well that's thing, if the panny optimiser is also on its a different story, your images look great but its a photo Im looking at on my monitor so its not what you see. Turn off the panny optimiser and post hem again please.

They look quite hard/digital looking though. What image enhancement settings are you using?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Well that's thing, if the panny optimiser is also on its a different story, your images look great but its a photo Im looking at on my monitor so its not what you see. Turn off the panny optimiser and post hem again please.

They look quite hard/digital looking though. What image enhancement settings are you using?

If you have the Panasonic with its DTM then why wouldn’t you use it?

It’s an iPhone in a dark environment so will never be at its best. Off my head I think it was Enhancement 3 but would have to check, actual picture quality of the Sony is better but it’s HDR isn’t nearly as good.

Enhancement is a very personal thing, what one person likes another will hate and vice versa.
 
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bandyka

Well-known Member
If you have the Panasonic with its DTM then why wouldn’t you use it?

It’s an iPhone in a dark environment so will never be at its best. Off my head I think it was Enhancement 3 but would have to check, actual picture quality of the Sony is better but it’s HDR isn’t nearly as good.

Enhancement is a very personal thing, what one person likes another will hate and vice versa.
Sure, to me enhancement 3 is way too hard unnatural digital looking I prefer option1 and even that dialed back down a bit. For PC use and Flight Sim 1.5. This is why I use Madvr as I can apply as much processing as I want without making the image look that hard as that's what the EPSON built in settings do.
All I am saying is without that player the HDR slider would have ad different effect hence would be washed out.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Sure, to me enhancement 3 is way too hard unnatural digital looking I prefer option1 and even that dialed back down a bit. For PC use and Flight Sim 1.5. This is why I use Madvr as I can apply as much processing as I want without making the image look that hard as that's what the EPSON built in settings do.
All I am saying is without that player the HDR slider would have ad different effect hence would be washed out.

As I said personal preferences apply, it’s all good and the great thing is the system allows each to do what they like.:smashin:
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Well that's thing, if the panny optimiser is also on its a different story, your images look great but its a photo Im looking at on my monitor so its not what you see. Turn off the panny optimiser and post hem again please.

They look quite hard/digital looking though. What image enhancement settings are you using?
Its actually a good ilustration that this debate is all subjective, both regarding HDR, and also other image parameters such as enhancement, and creators intend is trashed in just about every setup.

In the ende its not about the display or videochains capabilities to reproduce the content, but if the user is wowed, i concidr it a bit like putting a lot of chocolate on top of a good vanilla icecream, all you taste is the chocolate, same with DTM and enhancement, all you see is the DTM and enhancement.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Its actually a good ilustration that this debate is all subjective, both regarding HDR, and also other image parameters such as enhancement, and creators intend is trashed in just about every setup.

In the ende its not about the display or videochains capabilities to reproduce the content, but if the user is wowed, i concidr it a bit like putting a lot of chocolate on top of a good vanilla icecream, all you taste is the chocolate, same with DTM and enhancement, all you see is the DTM and enhancement.

The only issue I see about HDR is it doesn't have a standard unlike SDR, a calibrator calibrates a projector to SDR then each and every Movie in this format with look as intend to the best ability of the projector in question. With HDR you have directors choosing the Nits value anything between zero and 9999 so it's impossible to calibrate for this which is why we have custom gamma curves, HDR Sliders and DTM.

People use many different versions of enhancement done be many different devices and whilst I do agree it's not necessarily the intent of the director it an individual's preference to use it and in their opinion it don't destroys the experience it enhances it.

It's all in the name. ;)

P.S. I'm pretty sure whole objective of the home cinema experience is to enjoy it not really debate who's method is right. :thumbsup:
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
The only issue I see about HDR is it doesn't have a standard unlike SDR, a calibrator calibrates a projector to SDR then each and every Movie in this format with look as intend to the best ability of the projector in question. With HDR you have directors choosing the Nits value anything between zero and 9999 so it's impossible to calibrate for this which is why we have custom gamma curves, HDR Sliders and DTM.

People use many different versions of enhancement done be many different devices and whilst I do agree it's not necessarily the intent of the director it an individual's preference to use it and in their opinion it don't destroys the experience it enhances it.

It's all in the name. ;)

P.S. I'm pretty sure whole objective of the home cinema experience is to enjoy it not really debate who's method is right. :thumbsup:
I agree its 99% preferences for most, no matter if you call it enhancement or chocolate dont matter, the guy that handcrafted the vanilla icecream, spent hours perfecting the flavor, and did not take the chocolate into account, same with enhancement which is in many cases a quite drastic reduction in resolution, was not accounted for by the creator.
I know its often used to compensate not so good displays that have a hard time resolving the source, but its a preference distortion.

My point is that these discussions are absolutely pointless, as nobody knows your preferences but you, some will be content / happy as long as there is a image on screen, others will want it as close to bit perfect as possible to get the absolute most of creators intend, and With HDR DTM thats far from happening, for that you will need a reference display with true HDR capabilities.
What we are trying to do with HDR on projectors is to compress it into a SDR display, and for some reason now thinking we have HDR.:facepalm:
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I don't disagree with most of what you wrote above but the problem with always remain even if they standardise HDR in that projectors will always struggle to display HDR to it's true potential and why whether you like it or not Custom Curves, HDR Sliders and DTM will remain to be necessary to try and combat the inherent failings of the display.

BTW the guy that handcrafted the vanilla ice cream couldn't give a flying f#@k what anyone puts on his ice cream, he's just happy to still have a job in these difficult times. :D
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I don't disagree with most of what you wrote above but the problem with always remain even if they standardise HDR in that projectors will always struggle to display HDR to it's true potential and why whether you like it or not Custom Curves, HDR Sliders and DTM will remain to be necessary to try and combat the inherent failings of the display.

BTW the guy that handcrafted the vanilla ice cream couldn't give a flying f#@k what anyone puts on his ice cream, he's just happy to still have a job in these difficult times. :D
And nobody give a flying f#@k what you do with your projector setup;), what im wondering is, whats the purpose of a debate like this, is it to find the right way or to find out there is no way? Tecnically HDR is not possible on Projectors, its simply just a HDR movie compressed into SDR, so im wondering whats best the compressed SDR or the native mastered SDR, as there is nothing you do with DTM that could not be mastered into a SDR disc.
 
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bytehoven

Active Member
There is a growing school of thought that mastering for HDR and then creating a SDR trim pass, is producing superior results compared to mastering first for SDR.

Which gives even greater weight to the SDR WCG option/arguement.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
There is a growing school of thought that mastering for HDR and then creating a SDR trim pass, is producing superior results compared to mastering first for SDR.

Which gives even greater weight to the SDR WCG option/arguement.
Never hurt to have to much information, making a HDR edition out of a old SDR movie is a bit of a marketing stunt, yes they look different, some filtering and changing the color balance, at the end of the day thy could release that same tweaked up edition on the 1080P BD to for people that like the new processed look of the old movie, good example is The Fifth Element. Think all the samples you can buy today on BD is based on the remastered in 4K edition, looking at that one compared to the older BD, or the DVD or the LD edition its obvious that someone have to mess with the look of the movie every time to sell it once more. The remastered in 4K looks oversaturated and have obvious edge ringing on objects, i very much doubt it has any relation to a new scan of the original film, but simply a trip true the blender, and so goes for most older movies resold on UHD HDR.
 

Diddern

Active Member
Had a test with 5 different 4K HDR vs Blueray films today together with a friend. Both film lovers and both projector users, Films tested: Greatest Showman, Gemini Man, Prometheus, MIB international, and Lucy. Compared also the same scenes on Blueray. Every scene was watched 2 times.

We first watched Blueray calibrated to SDR 16FL D65 Gamma 2,4 Contrast 89K:1, HDR Calibrated with 135Nits/39FL, D65 46K:1 with filter BT2020/P3.

Mad VR just does a so extremely good job that I can actually say that I can start to like HDR on projectors.
Blueray looked very different, not bad at all but actually some boring compared.
We both had the same feeling. But also important to remember that HDR is mastered totally different.

But hard to say this, 4K HDR won with a big margin on the NX9 compared to Blueray with the same scene compared.
My own problem is that I know that SDR is 100% correct and I can't say that with HDR. But looked stunning.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
But hard to say this, 4K HDR won with a big margin on the NX9 compared to Blueray with the same scene compared.
My own problem is that I know that SDR is 100% correct and I can't say that with HDR. But looked stunning.

yep i have to say i have only done a brief comparison with my jvc n7, sicario 4k uhd blu-ray that watched and then popping in the blu-ray to follow. just the opening daylight scenes leading upto the house and blu-rya just looks flat by comparison. not to say blu-ray doesnt look great :D
 

Diddern

Active Member
I guess you get some messed up in the head hehe.

My friend that was here, has a different projector not JVC and he was shocked how good it was. Also likes the low nits version that I made with D65 P3 2,4 gamma with 80K:1 16Fl using MadVr for HDR tone mapping.

Even that also kicks ass compared to Blueray hehe. How messed up can I be?
Or is it just MadVR lol
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I guess you get some messed up in the head hehe.

My friend that was here, has a different projector not JVC and he was shocked how good it was. Also likes the low nits version that I made with D65 P3 2,4 gamma with 80K:1 16Fl using MadVr for HDR tone mapping.

Even that also kicks ass compared to Blueray hehe. How messed up can I be?
Or is it just MadVR lol
try put your P3 filter in on the SDR setting and calibrate it to 22fl, and do a 2.4 -2.5 gamma see if any of them look more like the HDR disc, and just let your colors run oversaturated.
 

Diddern

Active Member
try put your P3 filter in on the SDR setting and calibrate it to 22fl, and do a 2.4 -2.5 gamma see if any of them look more like the HDR disc, and just let your colors run oversaturated.
Had a setting ready for that check 23FL P3 SDR D65. But SDR and HDR UHD are mastered so differently. And don't get the same effect. MadVR read every frame and tone map with the HDR flag so won't even be close. But I understand your thinking here.
 

Diddern

Active Member
As I see it HDR effect is a little wow look at first. But have to say after looking closer it's not as bad as I expected. And a UHD player can't compete with MadVr. Different world. Also, see that in normal blueray. But have to say look whos talking. I said a year ago MadVr for me, NO WAY.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
As I see it HDR effect is a little wow look at first. But have to say after looking closer it's not as bad as I expected. And a UHD player can't compete with MadVr. Different world. Also, see that in normal blueray. But have to say look whos talking. I said a year ago MadVr for me, NO WAY.

Would MadVR be classed as a form of enhancement? ;) Enhancement isn’t for everyone but it’s great we have the option don’t you think. :smashin:

You guys are pushing me down the HTPC + MadVR route.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I would love to try out HTPC and Mad Vr, but i know its a hobby all by its own, and ill end up spending a fortune and the next 2 years fiddeling with drivers and settings, i have been out calibrating to many setups where the hole HTPC setup was a nightmare, and would not output what it should.
Who knows what happens next year.
 

Diddern

Active Member
Would MadVR be classed as a form of enhancement? ;) Enhancement isn’t for everyone but it’s great we have the option don’t you think. :smashin:
You guys are pushing me down the HTPC + MadVR route.
I also said that to my MadVr enthusiast's friends hehe they got mad. But it's the Croma resolution that is done so much better than a BD player. But yes there is some hokus pokus. Because there is a massive positive difference in many scenes and better everywhere else.
But I have turned off all possible improvements to the picture. Even the graphic card. But who knows, when it's too good something is HUUMM.
Just to get MadVr fixed it's like a wonder medicine. lol



I would love to try out HTPC and Mad Vr, but i know its a hobby all by its own, and ill end up spending a fortune and the next 2 years fiddeling with drivers and settings, i have been out calibrating to many setups where the hole HTPC setup was a nightmare, and would not output what it should.
Who knows what happens next year.

That is true, it's a total sh*tshow if you don't know what to turn on or off. So basically it's not for me at all. But now after a correct setup by my pro-user friends, it works so smoothly. I just put in the Nitts/FL, calibration data that my projector has, and does everything itself. But for me a computer is a total nightmare correct.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Had a test with 5 different 4K HDR vs Blueray films today together with a friend. Both film lovers and both projector users, Films tested: Greatest Showman, Gemini Man, Prometheus, MIB international, and Lucy. Compared also the same scenes on Blueray. Every scene was watched 2 times.

We first watched Blueray calibrated to SDR 16FL D65 Gamma 2,4 Contrast 89K:1, HDR Calibrated with 135Nits/39FL, D65 46K:1 with filter BT2020/P3.

Mad VR just does a so extremely good job that I can actually say that I can start to like HDR on projectors.
Blueray looked very different, not bad at all but actually some boring compared.
We both had the same feeling. But also important to remember that HDR is mastered totally different.

But hard to say this, 4K HDR won with a big margin on the NX9 compared to Blueray with the same scene compared.
My own problem is that I know that SDR is 100% correct and I can't say that with HDR. But looked stunning.

this is no surprise to me.

I keep saying, but strigs doesn’t believe me, the lumagen does an absolutely amazing job of automatic tone mapping (users say it’s better than madvr, although I’ve never used it so can’t compare). 4k hdr on my 760 looks absolutely stunning, clearly better than any Blu Ray.

Much more depth to the image, more colours, with the added bonus of 4k pixels also looking better.

Also, much better audio most of the time with Atmos and DTSX.
 

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