alebonau
Well-known Member
As a a bit of a back ground i am an early adopter for 4k uhd from day one of release of the format and players and projectors capable. I have owned two projectors in jvc x7000 without dynamic tone mapping. and also in the last year a projector in the jvc n7 that didnt have dynamic tone mapping initially but has now via a firmware update. In 3-4 years I used work arounds without tone mapping including to tone map externally via devices. Keen een to talk about dynamic tone mapping for projectors and not only the benefits but talk through some of the other arguments I see mentioned on this site. The below just some I noticed in a epson 9400 thread.
Dont need DTM slider is all you need ? I would question this, as this is something i found exploring in helping couple of folk with the epson 9400 and HDR content. a great example is mathew McConaughey scene at start of interstellar.... the scenes initially look great then come to his scene - its early morning pitch black and cant see anything on screen....so we slide the slider and so can see some thing ... then there are other scenes that look out of whack... so yeah am sure you could find a point on the slider that looks good for interstellar overall... with some playing around... but what does that mean for next movie you watch... so you play around with the slider again. thats where dynamic tone mapping steps in.
its been a revelation literally for me. having used two projectors without it to see what a boon and literally set forget it is once have it (DTM).
I have 95 nits or 100 nits ? or ~30FL and thats all I need. This certainly helps. I achieve 100nits and 100% this helps with HDR. and those folks with closer to 50-75 nits i would say struggle with HDR and uhd. unless they get a calibrator or they themselves know how to best set their projector to suit. you can calibrate to get some benefit of HDR with as little as 22 FL I beleive otherwise will find just some things just too dark. This is a side issue though to tone mapping. ie having the nits to do gain benefit for HDR. This is basic setup of a projector for 4k uhd and HDR.
I have a panasonic player and that can tone map ? I have had previous gen ub900 and current gen ub9000 and can say without a shadow of doubt these help... where they help is in what is called static tone mapping. ie look at the metadata of a disc and then do tone mapping to suit. this has its limits though. often the meta data is just wrong or plain missing. yeah beleive it or not this is more often then realise... its better than nothing at all, definitely of benefit . but doesnt help where peak luminance actually varies in scenes or even frame by frame and neither helps with other sources like stuff from media sources like apple TV 4K or other brand uhd blu-ray player, or htpc or media servers or gaming consoles.
I have a vertex unit and can force DV or LLDV (dolby vision tone mapping) ? Not something I have explored personally. Mainly because with a couple of goes of using fury devices the hdmi issues give me a serious aversion to explore. I also wonder how effective as its only going to work for dolby vision sources and media ? it relies on the source gear to tone map. Plus it doesnt really know what capability of your display is ? I'll let others talk through this approach further...
My own conclusions so far,
Tone mapping needs to be dynamic, and needs to exist in either in the projector or in a separate device that handles all HDR signals.
folks perhaps need to experience what dynamic tone mapping is to appreciate...the lack of having to fiddle (scene by scene, frame by frame, movie by movie) ..the set forget nature... dynamic tone mapping is indeed not only looking at meta data is appreciative of your projection conditions (nits can achieve) but also analysing either frame by frame or scene by scene of the disc to tone map.
Tone mapping should have been dynamic from day one of 4k uhd and projectors. it just wasnt. hopefully it is the case going forward with projector releases
(only jvc builds in, LG has something on the the horizon) and more add on devices (we have madvr envy and lumagen both costing far more than many projectors themselves) that do all this for you feeding a tone mapped signal to the projector.
Keen for this thread perhaps for folks to share their thoughts. their experiences with tone mapping and managing without... This is really quite key to enjoying the best we can manage with projectors and 4k UHD and HDR. So please share your thoughts...
Dont need DTM slider is all you need ? I would question this, as this is something i found exploring in helping couple of folk with the epson 9400 and HDR content. a great example is mathew McConaughey scene at start of interstellar.... the scenes initially look great then come to his scene - its early morning pitch black and cant see anything on screen....so we slide the slider and so can see some thing ... then there are other scenes that look out of whack... so yeah am sure you could find a point on the slider that looks good for interstellar overall... with some playing around... but what does that mean for next movie you watch... so you play around with the slider again. thats where dynamic tone mapping steps in.
its been a revelation literally for me. having used two projectors without it to see what a boon and literally set forget it is once have it (DTM).
I have 95 nits or 100 nits ? or ~30FL and thats all I need. This certainly helps. I achieve 100nits and 100% this helps with HDR. and those folks with closer to 50-75 nits i would say struggle with HDR and uhd. unless they get a calibrator or they themselves know how to best set their projector to suit. you can calibrate to get some benefit of HDR with as little as 22 FL I beleive otherwise will find just some things just too dark. This is a side issue though to tone mapping. ie having the nits to do gain benefit for HDR. This is basic setup of a projector for 4k uhd and HDR.
I have a panasonic player and that can tone map ? I have had previous gen ub900 and current gen ub9000 and can say without a shadow of doubt these help... where they help is in what is called static tone mapping. ie look at the metadata of a disc and then do tone mapping to suit. this has its limits though. often the meta data is just wrong or plain missing. yeah beleive it or not this is more often then realise... its better than nothing at all, definitely of benefit . but doesnt help where peak luminance actually varies in scenes or even frame by frame and neither helps with other sources like stuff from media sources like apple TV 4K or other brand uhd blu-ray player, or htpc or media servers or gaming consoles.
I have a vertex unit and can force DV or LLDV (dolby vision tone mapping) ? Not something I have explored personally. Mainly because with a couple of goes of using fury devices the hdmi issues give me a serious aversion to explore. I also wonder how effective as its only going to work for dolby vision sources and media ? it relies on the source gear to tone map. Plus it doesnt really know what capability of your display is ? I'll let others talk through this approach further...
My own conclusions so far,
Tone mapping needs to be dynamic, and needs to exist in either in the projector or in a separate device that handles all HDR signals.
folks perhaps need to experience what dynamic tone mapping is to appreciate...the lack of having to fiddle (scene by scene, frame by frame, movie by movie) ..the set forget nature... dynamic tone mapping is indeed not only looking at meta data is appreciative of your projection conditions (nits can achieve) but also analysing either frame by frame or scene by scene of the disc to tone map.
Tone mapping should have been dynamic from day one of 4k uhd and projectors. it just wasnt. hopefully it is the case going forward with projector releases
(only jvc builds in, LG has something on the the horizon) and more add on devices (we have madvr envy and lumagen both costing far more than many projectors themselves) that do all this for you feeding a tone mapped signal to the projector.
Keen for this thread perhaps for folks to share their thoughts. their experiences with tone mapping and managing without... This is really quite key to enjoying the best we can manage with projectors and 4k UHD and HDR. So please share your thoughts...