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DVI, HDMI Confusion

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by scarty16, Oct 8, 2003.

  1. scarty16

    scarty16
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    I feel I am all at sea trying to decipher what all of these things are, my understanding is as follows, and please correct me if I am incorrect as I am sure others are in the same boat.

    DVI - Digital Video, no encryption, no audio

    DVI + HDCP - Digital Video + encryption, no audio

    HDMI 1.0 - Digital Video + encryption, audio multichannel (compressed I believe) + encryption

    HDMI 2.0 - Digital Video + encryption, audio multichannel (no compression) + encryption

    I am not sure whether these are correct, but the current crop of HDMI products ie the Pioneers etc are HDMI 1.0, and there are no HDMI 2.0 products out there yet.

    HDMI 1.0 is backwards compatible with DVI and DVI + HDCP.

    Can anyone confirm/deny these thoughts and please use english!!!:confused:
     
  2. tbrar

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    I think thats correct. With regard to HDMI and DVI as a Video (RGB) transport, the only real difference is HDMI has interlaced support (480i/576i) . Also HDMI will carry signal over longer distances.
     
  3. MAW

    MAW
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    That must be why the 04 HDE's can have a 10m cable, over the 7m max on the 03's
     
  4. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Hi,

    I believe HDMI 1.0 only carries stereo audio. Multi-channel audio won't appear until the HDMI 2.0 standard. :rolleyes:

    Steve
     
  5. scarty16

    scarty16
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    I went to the HDMI site www.hdmi.com and it seems to suggest multi-channel in v1.0, but I am by no means a techie, so it would be nice to know the correct answer from somebody who understands all of this!!!
     
  6. scarty16

    scarty16
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    This is an extract from the HDMI site.
    **********************************************
    HDMI breaks new ground by enabling an uncompressed, all-digital connection between digital source devices such as DVD players, DVD recorders, digital set-top boxes, D-VHS players and A/V receivers, and digital display devices such as DTVs, plasma displays, LCD TVs and projectors.

    Fully compliant with both the HDMI 1.0 and DVI 1.0 specifications, Silicon Image's PanelLink Cinema products feature the latest generation of Silicon Image's PanelLink TMDS core technology for HDMI compliance and are backward compatible with the growing installed base of DTVs featuring DVI-HDCP inputs. The SiI 9190 and SiI 9993 support the full range of DTV resolutions including 480i, 576i, 480p, 576p, 720p and 1080i, as well as all 18 ATSC formats. Going a step further, the PanelLink Cinema ICs integrate HDCP, which has been heralded by major motion picture producers for its ability to protect premium high-definition content from unauthorized reproduction and distribution. Each SiI 9190 and SiI 9993 IC features unique, pre-programmed HDCP keys, which greatly simplify the manufacturing process, lower costs and provide the highest level of key security available.

    Designed for DVD players, DVD recorders, digital set-top boxes, D-VHS players and A/V receivers, the SiI 9190 transmitter combines digital video and audio in a single, HDMI-compliant stream. Incorporating an extremely flexible video and audio input bus, the SiI 9190 offers a seamless interface with all major DVD and high-definition MPEG decoders. An industry-standard S/PDIF input accepts PCM-encoded data as well as Dolby Digital, DTS and all other S/PDIF-compatible audio formats. The SiI 9190 easily transmits HD video and multi-channel audio over cables in excess of 15 meters for greater system flexibility.
    ***********************************************
    So I am still confused!!
     
  7. AVS Brett

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    Hi Guys,

    Please set me straight. I've been scrupulously ignoring all talk of HDCP, HDMI and other cryptic encription nomenclatures for ages in the forums. After all, I thought, in customarily simplistic terms: I'm in Europe, where there's NO HD being broadcast, and probably no serious plans for pan-European coverage for eons to come. Even if it came about, it would probably wind up like the former HD-Mac Packet standard which made its way to hardware at exhorbitant "future ready" prices, but died in the egg.

    Have I got it all wrong? Is there really some useful purpose for having HCDP compatibility for one's DVI input on a plasma? Isn't this all bells and whistles just in case one day someone (HD sky?) decided to encrypt its content only viewable through a fully compatible DVI input?

    Your answer will hopefully Green Light my NEC purchase, as so far the only thing it can be faulted with is just that: no HDCP. :)
     
  8. tbrar

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    IMHO HDCP content is on the way. However, when it arrives is another matter. I think HDCP encrypted content from the likes of Sky/BBC Broadcasts is a very long way off, but for DVD Home Cinema its likely to arrive sooner.

    My personal opinion is that HDCP Content will really come to prominence when a new format of DVD, such as Blu Ray, are widely adopted. When this happens I dont know, I would imagine over the next couple of years or so (or perhaps not?). But then there is also Microsofts WM9, this can deliver HD DVD content today without the need for a new DVD format (Granted, it still needs ironing out !, ie T2Extreme) ....

    Its a bit of a grey area though I think if youre looking at a longer term investment it would be prudent when buying any panel to investigate its capability to support HDCP content, if not off the shelf, then with some sort of migration path (modular boards). However, if like me youll probably replace every couple of years or sooner (even though you set out not to !!), then go with your choice, enjoy and look to upgrade when its an issue.

    However, this is just my opinion...
     
  9. AVS Brett

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    Thanks a Zillion for reassuring me. In France it seems even more unlikely that we'll get such copy protection measures any time soon (we can't even get Sky legally!). New Blue Ray standards may come out, but being future proof doesn't prevent unexpected future developments from cropping up. Glad there's nothing officially announced this side of the pond regarding HDCP etc. Plenty enough signal scrambling already, what with all the encoding and decoding algorithms already going into the regular signal path... :eek:
     
  10. tbrar

    tbrar
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    John Dawson (Arcam) has just cleared up an issue regarding these new digital output DVD players such as the pending Pioneer 868.

    I wasn't aware of this and this may be of interest prior to you placing orders for panel.
     
  11. MAW

    MAW
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    So you can't connect them to a dvi plasma or projector you've already bought, as they will not be compliant. Nor the Panasonic DVI board for the PWD6. Pioneer are treading a relatively lonely path at present then. Not that it's a bad idea, by any means.
     
  12. tbrar

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    Maw, it looks like it. Certainly news to me. The problem is though is this approach to new DVD players will more than likely not be Pioneer exclusive ..... Will it be mirrored by other manufacturers?
     
  13. MAW

    MAW
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    It's bound to be. The reasons are from the big studios, they're scared stiff of digital piracy, and it's only a matter of time before a way is found. DVD as I understand it is kind of 'licenced' technology, just like Dolby Digital, and you cna't get approval for a product that doesn't meet the standard, ie has a non-HDCP DVI output. However, how long before a hack appears, or a chip, just like regional coding, which is now just about dead in the water.
     
  14. scarty16

    scarty16
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    This gets more complicated by the minute!!
     
  15. MAW

    MAW
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    Not really, they've invented a new standard, and it's not backward compatible, even though it looks the same. Only HDCP compliant displays have the decryption software.
     
  16. cwick

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    Odd, I was sure the DVI board I purchased was advertised as HDCP compliant. Then again, it was advertised as other things too, and it doesn't do those either.

    I'll try feeding it an HDCP enabled hi-def signal from my Momitsu later (assuming it'll do that - I think there's a toggle in the secret menu for HDCP) and see what happens.

    Cheers, Carl.
     
  17. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Hi Carl,

    I don't think the Momitsu bothers with that nasty HDCP stuff - naughty, naughty! :p You can disable Macrovision in the hidden menu, if you wish.

    Steve
     
  18. cwick

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    Hi Steve,

    You're right, very naughty. Especially as the Sigma Design chipset does support it.

    What a shame, I won't be able to test my DVI board now. Maybe I should ask them to fix it in the next firmware update ? :devil:

    Cheers, Carl.
     
  19. krl25sc

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    DVI board for Panasonic 6 plasma is HDCP compatible (supposedly) - works fine with my Samsung 935 DVI HDCP (supposedly) outputs anyway - although so does my Dell 18" LCD monitor which I understand is not HDCP compliant.
     
  20. MAW

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    well that's cos none of those, panasonic, momitsu, etc are actually compliant. The final release of the standard is what pioneer are waiting for, as I understand it (frequently wrongly!) So anything out there now is not compliant by definition, and long may it be so. Come on guys, get hacking, we need more non compliant devices.
     
  21. tbrar

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    Thats my understanding also, that the final HDCP standard is still not decided, or at least confirmed. This being the case what does it actually mean when a device, panel or player, is badged as HDCP compliant ?

    [edit] hopefully you what I am trying to get at ?. With no standard its not actualy complying to anything. What happens when the standard is ratified, ie will they all require a firmware upgrade? Perhaps these devices have support for a number of the HDCP standards under deliberation ? [edit]
     
  22. tbrar

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    Apologies if others are aware of all of this. But just in case I am not alone in this in my lack of understanding of this subject:-

    I have a read around and there *are* ratified standards for HDCP that are already in place and published. HDCP 1.0, more recently HDCP 1.1 ( http://www.digital-cp.com/ ). Consequently, manufacturers of current HDCP compliant devices are shipping with either of these. For anyone interested in this the attached is a good article:-

    http://www.e-insite.net/ednmag/contents/images/209091.pdf

    It does lead me to ask other questions though, apparently HDCP 1.0 was full of holes and content providers wanted improvments, hence HDCP 1.1. What then happens to the devices hardwired with earlier HDCP versions as and when the method is improved by subsequent releases?, namely is backward compatability going to be an issue ?. Also whats to stop content providers driving new HDCP standards as and when, potentially rendering devices using earlier HDCP variants obselete ?
     
  23. MAW

    MAW
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    So 'final' standards are agreed on a continuing basis! Wonderful. That is more or less what I'd thought, that the goal posts were still moving. This is much more complicated than we could have imagined, it must be a nightmare for the 'early adopter' manufacturers.
     
  24. They

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    I believe DVI supports all video formats although only VGA is mandated whereas HDMI has many defined formats.

    However, either way you don't necessarily get every format when a device has HDMI as with DVI it is the manufacturers' prerogative which formats they ouput over the digital interface, e.g. interlaced support seems to be left out of many implementations.
     
  25. Arshad

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    Maybe a stupid question but let's say a plasma has a dvi input and it is not HDCP compliant and I connect it to the the dvd player which has a dvi output, will it output the video to the plasma? Or will there be any problems?

    If the dvi input in the plasma cannot support HDCP and then the dvd player cannot send out the video signal to the plasma if the dvi input is not HDCP then what's the use of having dvi as an input. Why would they make a non-hdcp dvi as an input, what's the use?

    Also I don't think one should consider the HDCP issue when buying a plasma now, as i have understood by reading these threads that it may take few years 2 or 3 perhaps. If i buy my plasma now it will be dead in 2 or 3 years anyway.
     
  26. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    DVI non HDCP to Display with DVI HDCP= might get a picture if the display has been designed to accept video at the resolution the DVD player is outputting.

    DVI HDCP to Display with DVI HDCP input= might get a picture if the display has been designed to accept video at the resolution the DVD player is outputting. (which it probably will as HDCP is really for video content so 720P, 1080I, 480P are likely to be listed.....but what about 576P...could it be PAL prog all over again?)

    DVI HDCP to Display with DVI (NON HDCP)= no picture


    The reason for having a display with non HDCP implimented DVI input is this: DVI was designed as a low cost method to get signal from a PC to a display. By missing out Digital to Analogue and Analogue to Digital stages in PC's and Monitors the manufacturers could reduce costs, increase image quality.....and put price up to make more profit! So the initial use was for PC's where there is NO requirement for copyprotection of the signal.

    Hope this is of use,

    Gordon
     
  27. Arshad

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    How about

    DVI (NON HDCP) to Display with DVI (NON HDCP) = ?
     
  28. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Arshad,

    That would give a picture as long as the device can support that resolution and signal timings. For example, the DVI on the card fitted to Pioneer MXE plasmas can only take PC resolutions and by chance, 480p video. My Momitsu can output a scaled 768p signal which the plasma can display, albeit with some issues due to the player's firmware - we are waiting for new corrective firmware to be available shortly. Hope this helps.

    Steve
     

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