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DVI-D or component output?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by WoodyAllen, Jan 31, 2004.

  1. WoodyAllen

    WoodyAllen
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    I'm awaiting delivery of an AE500 projector (from Komplett: ordered 25 Jan and till not shipped:mad: ) and was about to buy a 5m component cable to take advantage of prog scan output from DVD player. Would connection via a DVI-D cable offer a better picture? Anyone any experience of this?

    thanks & regards
     
  2. Kramer

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    Does your DVD player have a DVI output? If it does (or you get a player that does), then you should see an improved picture from your PJ.

    The DVI input can also benefit from the use of a HCPC for even better results :eek:

    Best of luck with the new PJ (Komplett having problems these days :()

    :smoke:
     
  3. WoodyAllen

    WoodyAllen
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    Cheers Kramer, I was about to buy a HK2550 and connect via component when this DVI lark arose. I've read several postings on DVI and confess to being thoroughly confused; to a novice like me who doesn't have a clue about scaling (for example) it's very confusing. If I source a dvd player with dvi (or hdmi?; any recommendation?) would I need to get deep into the internal workings of the PJ or would slinging a dvi cable between the 2 deliver home cinema heaven?

    As for HCPC: unless this is something you can buy, take out of the box & plug in, I think I'll leave this for a while. I need to learn to walk before I try running!

    best regards

    p.s. first class forum; congrats to all involved.
     
  4. KraGorn

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    One potential downside of using DVI is that displays like my Z2 projector use a fixed refresh rate, the Z2 uses 60Hz which means PAL meterial will inevitably judder due to framerate issues.

    While I have an HCPC that's been twiddled with for some time, and also a cheap but pretty good Momitsu player, both of which use DVI and produce a damned fine picture, I'm moving towards component progressive from a decent quality player like a 2900 perhaps .. from some brief comparisons I'm seeing not as much in the way of improvement to offset some of the negatives as far as PC use is concerned certainly.

    Also, DVI/HDCP is now in effect obsolete, HDMI is the 'future' if you believe the pundits and that's not 100% compatible with DVI/HDCP .. even most DVI/HDCP players have problems with some DCI/HDCP displays, let alone HDMI-to-DVI/HDCP connections.

    IMHO HDMI isn't fully-cooked yet and is still being tweaked by those defining the standards. HDMI players are also expensive and machines like the Pioneers are rarer than hen's teeth right now.

    I would seriously think about recommending something like the HK DVD2550 and using progressive component .. I've not had experience of that personally but the vast number of times it gets the nod round here seems to me to indicate it's a good way to spend £250. I use a Sony 730 for prog. comp. and it's pretty good for the price but I think I'd prefer the HK if money stretches.


    To answer your 'out of the box' question .. yes, DVI is like any other connection type, if both boxes talk the same variant they'll 'just work', however it's not 100% guaranteed it'll work. For example, Denon's flagship A11 DVD player reportedly won't work with your AE500, among others it doesn't like, there's no word on the Pioneer 868 and the AE500 that I've seen.

    If you go this route I'd suggest getting a cheap player like the Momitsu V880 or maybe the Yamakawa 365, neither available from this country but can be imported from Germany .. the Samsung HD935 can be sourced locally I think. My V880 produces great pictures, but it's a short-term answer as far as I'm concerned.
     
  5. WoodyAllen

    WoodyAllen
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    thanks for this. You've convinced me that the best solution for me is a HK2550 which I'll order today (seen for 260 on Play). Sounds like it should be a good partner for the ae500 (if Komplett ever get round to delivering it!)
     
  6. KraGorn

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    I hope you're not disappointed. Be aware I am probably in a minority round here but I've done an amount of experimentation on my own kit and those are the conclusions I've reached about the state of things at present.

    I don't think HDMI will be settled for some time, maybe at year's end or more likely next year, I really think that buying an HDMI player right now is a gamble that isn't justified by the increase in PQ on a low-end PJ like the 500 and Z2.
     
  7. WoodyAllen

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    I'm sure I won't be: I'm moving from a 7-year old 32" Mitsubishi w/screen and a Wharfdale 750 dvd player...I think I'll notice a difference!! Thanks for your guidance.
     
  8. RTFM

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    I don't think HDMI will be settled for some time, maybe at year's end or more likely next year, I really think that buying an HDMI player right now is a gamble that isn't justified by the increase in PQ


    Just my own observations using a Pioneer DV-868/HDMI/Sim2 HT 300 Link. The image is much cleaner with HDMI than analogue component or analogue progressive component. By that I mean there is much less noise in the picture and much less ringing (edge enhancement ) around objects in the image.
    Another great advantage of HDMI is that you can output say
    1280 x 720 from the DVD payer and match the native resolution of the projector so that no scaling needs to be done in the projector.
     
  9. KraGorn

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    Interesting comment.

    Last weekend I did a fair amount of playing around with EE in mind, prompted by my noticing that the R1 version of FoTR:EE had a lot more noticeable EE than my R2 copy. I re-calibrated Sharpness, played both versions on my PC and Momitsu feeding 1280x720 into the Z2, then progressive component from the Sony 730.

    In all cases the EE in the R2 version was only really noticeable if one went looking for it .. for example when Bilbo opens the door to Gandalf there's a shot looking out the door where Gandalf's staff is shown against the blue sky, the R1 has a very noticeable white 'halo' whereas the R2 didn't, even on the component feed. Similary the edge of the door of Bilbo's study shown behind the opening title was very noticeable in the R1 and barely in the R2.

    It could well be that this is due to my relatively poor equipment, your DVD player and projector knock mine into a cocked-hat as far as quality is concerned. :) Do you know the technical explanation for what you observe, ie. why does a digital feed increase the visibility of EE?

    BTW, who did you bribe in order to get an 868 AND HDMI cable? :D
     
  10. RTFM

    RTFM
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    KraGorn,

    Not only do I find EE reduced using HDMI, another artifact where you see a faint magenta edge down one side of an object and a faint green edge down the other using component is absent .
    I put the improvements down to cutting out 2 stages of signal conversion ie. D to A and A to D using HDMI.

    Re. the Pioneer 868 and 668 players, the backlog has been all but cleared and my last one from Pioneer came through in about a week.
    Re. HDMI cables I was kindly given some by Alan Roser at Sim2.
    They should be readily available now from Farnell but only in 2m lengths at present ( HDMI to HDMI & HDMI to DVI made by Molex ).
    I'm trying to source longer cables. If anyone has info on suppliers of longer HDMI cables, let us know.
     
  11. KraGorn

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    Now THAT is news to me also. :eek: I see that effect even on my DVI feed from time to time, I've always put it down to an anomaly with the projector panels rather than a decoding defect.

    As for the 868, I phoned 3 prominent on-line stores late last week, none had stock and none had any idea when they may get some .. hmmm.
     
  12. RTFM

    RTFM
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    As for the 868, I phoned 3 prominent on-line stores late last week, none had stock and none had any idea when they may get some .. hmmm. [/B][/QUOTE]

    I'll phone the girls on the sales desk at Pioneer on Monday morning and find out their stock situation.
     
  13. KraGorn

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    That'd be nice to know ... AV-Sales told me they were hoping for some soon but held out little hope they'd get the number they ordered, Nexnix told me they had no idea when they'll see any nor had any great expectation as to the numbers, Home Cinema Heaven metaphorically said 'who knows, its Pioneer we're talking about here'.

    Not very encouraging when one's considering spending £800+. :(

    I was also told by AV-Sales that HDMI cables are impossible to get hold of.
     
  14. tbrar

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    You can get cables direct from Gefen (www.gefen.com), should you wish to - doesnt work very cost effective TBH, though desperate times call for desperate measures .... delivered in few days.

    Incedentally, I ordered a HDMI to DVI-D cable for use with my Pioneer 868AVi (HDMI) and Marantz VP12S3 (DVI-D HDCP) and am using it .. it works perfectly i.e. no issues with the two communicating as they should
     
  15. gandley

    gandley
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    now im confused.

    in one post the S3 boys are saying the 868i is better in component on there PJ(and i mean that with respect) and another says no but HDMI is stunning and get rid of these artifacts etc.

    My friends got the 434/868i combo and pic is definatly better via hdmi. but not greatly so. More in line with RTFM reports just a cleaner more solid pic. (but not a huge difference by my eyes but noticable)

    is this due to the fact that the sim2 is pure hdmi
    or the fact the sim2 is set up best to impliment it.

    or what?. because the S3 can be set so the scaler dosent come into use as well.

    well ive seen the 868i on the HT1000 and the resuts were mixed if not a little unimpressive whereas my A11 was solid and detailed.

    So why are results so mixed, is it just down to the PJs strenghs weakness in that it depend how a manufacture set them up.
    or are the dvd players a little fussy to who they connect too.
     
  16. KraGorn

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    You ordered from there did you?
     
  17. tbrar

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    Yes I did. I ordered on line, 10 foot HDMI to DVD-D cable. I did try calling around the UK for the cable with no joy - didnt want to wait for stock, and had heard of people using their products.

    I ended up paying for the Fed Ex International Priority shipping (a few $ more). They issued me a tracking number so I could track on Fed Ex's web site, shipped from Memphis on 23/01, received it on the 26th/01.

    As I said its not the cheapest option, but its an option.
     
  18. KraGorn

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    As you say, it provides a fall-back if all else fails.

    Thanks, useful to know.
     
  19. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello all

    Just a quick note re HDMI cables (HDMI to HDMI and DVI to HDMI) - we now have a fair selection of Molex, Gefen and BetterCables from stock: and when we run out its usually only a few days to re stock.

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS Also carrying Gefen HDTV DVI Switches, Splitters and Hubs from stock!
     
  20. RTFM

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    Joe,

    what lengths of HDMI to HDMI cables are you stocking ?

    Thanks

    Jeff
     
  21. Joe Fernand

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    Hello Jeff

    I have the following HDMI to HDMI in stock:

    Molex - 2m and 5m.

    I have the following due in late next week:
    Molex - 3m
    Gefen - 6' 10' and 15'
    BetterCables - 5m

    I have the following due in later in the month:
    BetterCables - 2m

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  22. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I think you are spot on!

    The Pioneer plasma may be fully optimised for HDMI from the Pioneer 868i.
    Can you remember which colour setting you used in the 868i?
    Ie "Direct" "Enhanced" or one of the memory settings?

    On the S3, the component has been optimised for DVD. That's why some people over at AVS have been a little miffed as it softens HDTV.

    Where as DVI has been optimised for HDTV/PC use. Feeding it low resolution DVD (even pre upscaled), isn't having the pleasing effect component is.

    HDMI/DVI can be made to look stunning, but requires a lot of tweaking.
    I think that is why i have stopped trying for the "time being".
    Ie i was trying to get the DVI looking as good as component, now that CAN'T be right!
    And i agree it does have less noise in the picture, and does actually show slightly more detail. But the human eye being what it is, must respond to the enhancements the Faroudja chipsets does with component.

    Your A11 may be a completely different story via DVI as it has Faroudja built in.

    I haven't had a chance to fully explore HTPC via DVI, as my 9600 has a bug with the latest Catalyst 4.1 drivers.
    I have learnt tonight, that using the older 3.7 version should sort it out until ATI come out with a fix.
    I will then see if DVI from my HTPC can exceed the 868i etc.
     
  23. tbrar

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    Fulabeer, thats interesting. I shall try it out :D
     
  24. gandley

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    thanks fulabeer,

    just shows theres a hell lot more to it than pic in here, sound out there.etc.
     

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