1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

DVE Disc

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by sneaky, Dec 31, 2003.

  1. sneaky

    sneaky
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    348
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    North East
    Ratings:
    +0
    Now I am very new to this so the problem maybe with me.

    I received my DVE disc this morning and I have listened to all that Joe Kane had to say and I can honestly say it was not for the faint hearted. I was expecting some easier to understand explanations and better walk through's but it just didn't happen for me.

    The other thing I was a bit troubled by was how much he went on about CRT Televisions. I don't think he mentioned LCD Projectors once which is why I bought the disc (are the fundamentals the same for setting up a HS20).

    Even the sound tests didnt seem to tell me where I should be putting my sound meter to check the levels of each speaker. When I looked in my AMP manual and did the simple test that they had, it said sit in your normal viewing position and make sure the level sounds the same - is this the same for the tests on the disc.

    Is the AVIA Disc any better for a new guy like myself or is it the same (like having to sit through one of those horrible Physics lessons, with a guy in open toed sandals with socks on rabitting on.

    I am an IT Development Manager, so I am not a complete num skull or technophobe but if I explained a new SQL database that I had built to a client in that manner, I think I would be out of a job.

    Thanks for listening to me having a rant but it's late and I am a very disappointed camper, I have been using avforums for about 2 months and the explanations you get on here are first class and to buy a disc that bambossles the hell out of me has got me going.
     
  2. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    Hi there,

    I have heard noises that would agree with you..... of course there are opposing ones, but they are of more knowledgeable folk who already know what is meant.

    Some of the fundamentals for crt and digital are the same, but things like blooming are crt only. The use of pluge/black/white bars is basically the same though.

    sound tests, you've got it, same thing! :)

    I havent got dve (since i was told it to be ages away), i d have avia and i didnt have any problems with it..... it seemed pretty understandable..... then again, im one to actually enjoy those physics lessons so who knows what others think! :D

    Stick with it and ask away about specifics, someone will certainly know how to answer!

    Ad
     
  3. Ice

    Ice
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hello,

    For my benefit (and presumably others) what exactly is a DVE disc?

    Cheers,
    Ice :cool:
     
  4. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    digital video essentials..... a dvd calibration disc for picture and sound

    ad
     
  5. sneaky

    sneaky
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    348
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    North East
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Buns

    What is a pluge
     
  6. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    ok now you are risking me saying something thats not right! :eek:

    My understanding is that a pluge is a series of grey boxes of differing lightness (i think thats the right term) 'stuck' together into a rectangle. You look at the different boxes and set the controls so that the boxes are all distinct and do not merge together.

    ad
     
  7. sneaky

    sneaky
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    348
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    North East
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Buns,

    That makes sense.

    Another place where the guy baffles me is when I am setting the brightness. There is a white rectangle in the middle of the screen and either side there are three vertical bars getting progressively darker from grey through to black. There is a black gap seperating the bars.

    I think, I am supposed to be adjusting the brightness so that the last vertical bar on each side blends into the black background and you don't actually see it, but he doesnt make that obvious to a new boy like myself. Unless I need my ears testing.

    Chris
     
  8. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yes, I found the dve spiel highly unclear – I had to watch the badly presented “physics lessons” a number of times!! Patterns are good though.

    PLUGE= Picture Line Up Generation Equipment, a test pattern developed by the BBC to assist in properly setting black levels in a video picture ie what buns said!

    As well as being excellent at selling av, Ivojo have a v. good glossary here: http://www.ivojo.co.uk/glossary.htm
     
  9. sneaky

    sneaky
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    348
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    North East
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Q,

    Did you get what he meant about setting the brightness.
     
  10. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Sneaky,

    I think so anyway ….....

    Yes, you are supposed to be adjusting the outer black bars (if you can see them!!) - which are slightly below “absolute” black level - so that they blend into the background which is at absolute black level.
     
  11. Hugh

    Hugh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,095
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Ratings:
    +1,121
    I thought the left one was blacker than black. The way I understood it was that the far left should disappear, the middle should be visible and you should make the right one blend into the background and then bring it "Just" into your vision.

    Or something.

    As for the white level, I prefer Avia's moving white bands.

    :)

    The colo(u)r stuff is pretty useless to me, as when viewing via DVI, the colour settings cannot be changed. Shame as I like a softer colour. Oh well.
     
  12. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    My understanding....

    Both the outer bars are below “absolute” black so if you can see them then your black level is set too low. At the point they blend into the background your system is showing black as “absolute” black ie it is spot on.

    If I remember correctly, the two inner bars (ie the ones next to the central strip) are 2% above absolute black and are to be used if something in your system eg your dvd player is clipping black levels so that you can't actually see the outer bars. In these circumstances (as you suggested Hugh) you set the inner bars so you can just see them.
     
  13. sneaky

    sneaky
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    348
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    North East
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Guys,

    Do you guys use HTPC or a DVD or both.
     
  14. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    one thing to confuse me..... i thought PAL didnt have blacker than black since i thought that PAL black was at 0 IRE.... and i also was told recently that all dvd should be at this level, which confuses me further that we are using blacker than black at all.....

    ad
     
  15. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    The mighty (and cheap!) Sony730 dvd player

    Yes, you would think that 0 ire would resemble the inside of a black hole :) but those outer bars are blacker (and therefore a negative value?). Does make you wonder if the background really is 0 ire but then if it isn't it cannot equate to the PAL standard! Presumably, therefore, 0 ire is based on what old tv's used to be able to go down to ???
     
  16. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    I dont know what it is and yet no one has sorted me..... i have a feeling it is all such a mess, there is no definitive answer.

    You could be right..... negative IRE..... just ive never heard of it before..... thn again im new to this so maybe thats not surprising!

    ad
     
  17. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have noticed that a number of dvd players are making a selling point of their ability to go "below black" for pluge calibration. These same players (eg denon a1 ) often have adjustable black levels ie 0 ire and 7.5 ire so presumably they can go below 0 ire....
     
  18. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    well Gordon just confirmed that avia has no blacker than black..... so below 0 is maybe wrong.

    ad
     
  19. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    But dve has three sets of bars - one set of which I can't see via my dvd player because they are too black ie below the background which I can see! (and avia must be 7.5 ire anyway!!)
     
  20. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    well you would think that...... but apparent dvd worldwide will tend to have black at 0, not 7.5 as per NTSc..... even on ntsc dvd...... but i gather it is practice as opposed to standard, so it doesnt have to be that way....

    ad
     
  21. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,306
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,018
    The way I understand it is this - PAL will show black when given a 0ire signal, or 0mv. NTSC requires 7.5 ire, or 0.49mv (ish - can't remember the figure exactly).

    So, when calibrating black for NTSC 7.5ire, if you play a PAL signal, it will be representing black at the display when given 7.5 or lower ire - but as black should be 0ire with PAL, the dark greys between 0ire and 7.5ire will all be shown as black - so you'll be losing detail or 'crushing blacks' as they say.

    The opposite happens with calibrating for 0ire - NTSC wil only ever show dark greys and never black, because it will only ever send 7.5 ire to the display, and that is set to show black at 0, and everything above, as grey. As it wil never see 0 it'll never get black.

    I think 'below black' or similar terms are used for NTSC only, and by setting them up for that, you'll get 0ire for black. So in theory, using Avia with an NTSC player set at 'below black' or 0ire (The pioneer players have a 0ire/7.5ire setting for NTSC IIRC), then both PAL and NTSC should have the same black levels.

    I think... :)

    Gary.
     
  22. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    but..... what about this about dvd being encoded with 0 ire being black irrelevant of standard.....

    ad
     
  23. Kane D Williams

    Kane D Williams
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    750
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Nr London
    Ratings:
    +10
    My head is spinning!!

    I believe the reason below black exists, is so that telecine operators/colourists can have more contrast range when colour grading a picture?
     
  24. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ok, according to info I have dug up so far - the below black stripes on dve are at -4 ire (negative ire does exist!) and the slightly above black are at +4 ire.

    My search for negative black continues....cue Star Trek music :D

    Edit: Yes, on a standard PAL pluge pattern the three bars are set at –4 ire , 0 ire and +4 ire.

    The PAL dve pluge is different though because I think the middle bar is +8 ire (need to check this).

    Blacker than black for NTSC seems to be 3.5 ire

    The suggestions I have seen so far are that if your machine cannot do blacker than black then Avia is the better calibration disc for you as far as black levels goes because, as Gordon said, you don’t need blacker than black to set black “accurately” using Avia! On dve, however, if you are using the +4 ire bars (as I have to) then the setting is (obviously) not as accurate.
     
  25. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    however, what you are saying would go to suggest that using avia will end up with you calibrating black to something other than 0 IRE. So if dvd black is meant to be at 0 IRE..... then it calibrates things wrong.....

    ad
     
  26. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I don't have Avia so don't really know much about it, but assuming it is calibrating to ntsc “standard” of 7.5 ire then it would be “wrong” for Pal black levels. I am sure I have heard Joe Kane talking/writing about this somewhere but can't remember where!!

    Noticed references to “enhanced black” for some US ntsc dvd players which means that they can go to pal 0 ire. Don't know why US sticks to 7.5 ire - apparently it only came about because the states introduced colour broadcasting in the early sixties when a telly's dynamic range was limited - hence the 7.5 ceiling. The Japanese changed from 7.5 ire to 0 ire in 1990.

    Edit: This is from a description of a US Tosh dvd player:

    "Further enhancing image quality, the SD2800 offers Toshiba's Video Black Level Expansion circuitry, which lets you position the reference black threshold cutoff at Normal (7.5 IRE) or Enhanced (0 IRE). The Enhanced position expands the overall contrast range in the picture, resulting in richer, deeper blacks and finer tonal gradation and gray-scale reproduction. It also includes the capability of reproducing "blacker than black" PLUGE signals, a critical feature for calibrating optimal brightness levels in a home theater environment."
     
  27. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    Quatermass,

    have a look at the pal/ntsc calibration disc thread..... its very recent on here. There is good confirmation that both NTSC and PAL dvd use black at 0 ire..... so calibrating to 7.5 ire would thus be wrong for all dvds..... do you see what im getting at?

    ad
     
  28. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I found the piece by Joe Kane on this:

    "PAL and NTSC Players: I own a multi-system TV. If I calibrate it for NTSC, will it adversely affect the . quality of picture in PAL?

    "That depends...." If the set is designed as a true multi-standard display device it will have individual memories for PAL and NTSC. However, that’s not always a good thing, and the reason many sets don’t have individual memories for each system. Having individual memories means that each rate must be individually set up. Video Essentials will only provide calibration information for the NTSC system, so you'll need another source of test signals to set up the PAL system as well. (A PAL version of the program is on the drawing boards at Joe Kane Productions, but no release date has been set.)

    Let’s take the case where the display device doesn’t have individual memories for NTSC and PAL and address the main question of adversely affecting the quality of the PAL picture by adjusting for proper NTSC display. There are many variables to address.

    What level of black is being made available from the player? The American NTSC system sets black level at +7.5 IRE. The Japanese NTSC system and the worldwide PAL system uses 0 IRE for black level. Many American DVD players offer the option of setting black at 0 or +7.5, so there is a possibility that such an option might also be available on multi-standard players.

    What black setting is available from your individual player? Ideally you would want both NTSC and PAL to have a 0 black level. That’s easy to accomplish from the point of view of what’s recorded on the disc. The level of black on the disc is at 0 . IRE. If the output signal is at any other level, the player is making the change. If there aren’t separate memories for the two rates and NTSC is at + 7.5 IRE and PAL is at 0 IRE then the single setting of the brightness control will be wrong for one or the other system.

    What color system is being delivered by the player? If the PAL color system is being used for both the NTSC and PAL rates, a single setting of the color control should be correct for both. The PAL system should not provide control over Tint and Sharpness, however.

    Since Brightness and Contrast are often interactive, a set with a single memory for both systems may also have a problem with these levels.

    Even gray scale calibration could be different between the two systems, although that is less likely if the PAL color system is being used for both signals.

    With these and many more factors going into an answer of "It depends..." the two systems are close enough so that calibrating a set for NTSC from Video Essentials may improve the performance in PAL, even though the entire set up for displaying PAL will still not be correct."
     
  29. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    it pretty much sounds like he is saying that you should do full calibrations separately for PAL and NTSC :D makes sense i guess

    ad
     
  30. Quatermass

    Quatermass
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yes, I agree. Although he says "that depends" (on your system) he then pretty much says you should have two calibrations anyway - just because it is hard to determine what your system is doing!!

    Edit: although in that last bit he does seem to suggest that if you are not too picky then a single calibration will do :)
     

Share This Page

Loading...