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DVDO iScan VP50 1.03 Beta Software now available.

StooMonster

Well-known Member
Forced 3:2
Is perfect for Blu-ray and HD DVD sources, as they are stored as 24p on disc and the players output perfect 1080i60 sequence with no bad edits.

'Forced 3:2' works really well. VP50 never loses cadence lock and drops into 'video', it can't because it's a 'film' only deinterlacing mode.

Forced 2:2
Replaces seperate the '2:2 Even' and '2:2 Odd' deinterlacing modes with a single mode that automatically detects the 'Even' or 'Odd'.

This is great for Region 2 DVD as they rarely have bad edits.

Again, 'Forced 2:2' works really well and VP50 never drops cadence lock (giving moire or line twitter), it can't it's a 'film' only mode.

24p output
Fixed and no longer breaks up.

Field Scale
Works as described, it's a mode that makes VP50 deinterlace 1080i in same way as VP20\30.

Non 'film source' deinterlacing fixes
All the audio bug fixes from v1.02 plus more in v1.03 should result in no audio problems -- but it's in public beta to try and catch some.

Fixed a bunch of bug around menus, HDMI inputs, 1080i Tri-Sync, remote control repeat. Updated Automation Protocol and Standby Mode so that unit does not power down while scrolling through menus.

Unfortunately doesn't yet have ability to turn off "cadence detection in progressive sources" that gives lag to games consoles outputting 480p/576p/720p/1080p.


All in all a great release for 'film source' deinterlacing.

StooMonster
 

ihan

Active Member
Forced 2:2 not working well here with 1080i input from sky HD box. Why on earth did they remove the 'odd' & 'even' functionality? These were the only options that produced a reliable film lock for 50Hz material. With 'Forced 2:2' it can't do a proper job of deciding whether it should be combining even or odd fields, leading to motion blur and combing. My test sources were 'I Robot' and 'SWIII: Revenge of the Sith' both 1080i from the skyHD box.

v1.01 beta was better in this respect!
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
Have you tried it with 576i sources yet? I found DVDs to be problem free.

I'll be checking out more 1080i material later, see if I get similar issues. I wonder if they made 'film bias' mode more film senstitive, as it seemed to give me less cadence lock drops than before, maybe give that a try too.

StooMonster
 

NonPayingMember

Previously Liam @ Prog AV
I'd hardly call a product that requires human intervention to enable film mode to be king of the film sources!! Good to hear the VP50 team at DVDO are still alive and kicking though!! Was beginning to wonder if we'd ever get an update.

I would love to hear if cadence detection is any better?? I reckon this is far more important. Anyone can do (and has done) force film. But even with HD-DVD you can't be gauranteed only film content (interactivity e.g. PIP) so it's only as good as the human intervention that controls it which sort of defeats the object. With DVD there are plenty of video material discs to get in the way (TV dramas, animations, sport, live concerts) so force film again will need intervention. I really can't agree that this is a solution for film processing, only more an override for those rare circumstances.

So any feedback on using the automatic modes to get the same kind of film-locked nirvana?? I can't really install a product that requires manual intervention to actually work! I wouldn't have thought detecting and working on 24p would be tricky, but it's SD DVD that bothers me most on this. Can you imagine the look on a footballer/lawyer/bankers face when I tell them they still have to go into the menu and manually select the option for the better picture with each new DVD in their 50 grand cinema? I'd be laughed off the site!!
 

ihan

Active Member
From my (very) brief tests, it appears at though the functionality of the 'auto' and 'film bias' modes is the same (in other words, very video prone).

I'm also getting bad stutter with 60Hz film input and 48Hz output (this seems worse than with v1.01) using both 'film bias' and 'forced 3:2' modes. 60Hz output seems ok with the same material.

I've only tested it for an hour or so, but v1.03 beta seems worse than v1.01 beta.
 

Dale Adams

Active Member
Forced 2:2 not working well here with 1080i input from sky HD box. Why on earth did they remove the 'odd' & 'even' functionality? These were the only options that produced a reliable film lock for 50Hz material. With 'Forced 2:2' it can't do a proper job of deciding whether it should be combining even or odd fields, leading to motion blur and combing. My test sources were 'I Robot' and 'SWIII: Revenge of the Sith' both 1080i from the skyHD box.
I suspect that the new forced 2:2 mode was never tested with Sky HD as a source. There's simply no way to do this in the US and I don't know if any beta testing of this feature was done in the UK. For that matter, there's precious little HD material available in 2:2 in the US either.

I believe the majority of the testing was done with SD sources, including quite a few 50 Hz 576i ones. To the best of my knowledge, none of these exhibited the problems you're describing (quite the contrary, in fact, as there was virtually perfect performance from these sources), which makes me wonder what's different about the Sky HD 1080i signal.

You shouldn't really be seeing the even/odd phase lock changing with the forced 2:2 mode, at least not with a source which doesn't do this itself. Did the old forced 2:2 mode(s) work with these same sources? If so, then the sources are okay and the new forced 2:2 mode should work. With a consistent source it should not be changing phase at all once initial lock has occurred.

One other possibility might be the VP50 implemenation itself. I've never actually seen the forced 2:2 implementation working in a VP50. I had a different development platform that was used for testing and evaluation, and, as it didn't exhibit the problems you're describing, I have to wonder if there's not something wrong with the VP50 hardware implementation or the way the hardware is programmed.

Also, I don't understand how you would get "motion blur" if the wrong two fields are being combined. Combing, yes, but blur? This almost makes me think it's never really entering the forced 2:2 mode at all but is staying in 'auto'. Do you see similar performance with these sources and the 'auto' deinterlacing mode?

- Dale Adams
 

Dale Adams

Active Member
Have you tried it with 576i sources yet? I found DVDs to be problem free.
That concurs with the testing that I'm aware of.

I'll be checking out more 1080i material later, see if I get similar issues. I wonder if they made 'film bias' mode more film senstitive, as it seemed to give me less cadence lock drops than before, maybe give that a try too.
I believe that's the case (but I don't have a VP50 to verify this).

- Dale Adams
 

Dale Adams

Active Member
From my (very) brief tests, it appears at though the functionality of the 'auto' and 'film bias' modes is the same (in other words, very video prone).
There should definitely be a difference, and a bigger difference than with previous versions. 'Auto' mode should be the same, but 'film bias' should be less likely to get knocked out of lock.

I'm also getting bad stutter with 60Hz film input and 48Hz output (this seems worse than with v1.01) using both 'film bias' and 'forced 3:2' modes. 60Hz output seems ok with the same material.
This shouldn't be the case, either. I believe that 48 Hz output with 60 hz 3:2 sources should be the same as in previous versions. The forced 3:2 mode with a perfect 3:2 source (i.e., no bad edits) should give you zero stutter problems.

I'm starting to wonder if they didn't really screw something up with this release and these new modes. Unfortunately, there's no way I can verify this as I don't have a VP50 to test. Is anyone else seeing this same behavior?

- Dale Adams
 

Dale Adams

Active Member
I'd hardly call a product that requires human intervention to enable film mode to be king of the film sources!!
The original purpose of these new locked 2:2 and 3:2 cadence modes was for use with 'perfect' sources (e.g., HD DVD) which never had cadence disruptions. This allows frame rate conversion to multiples of the original film rate which will never, ever stutter due to loss of cadence lock.

Every 'auto' mode deinterlacer I've ever seen drops out of lock sometimes. Some do it more than others (although those are typically less susceptible to combing), but they all do it. When you lose lock, even on a virtually static scence, there can be stutter in the frame rate conversion when lock is reacquired. These new modes were intended to prevent this from happening, which is not something I've seen with any other product.

They were also intended to be invoked by knowledgeable users who were looking to extract that extra little bit of performance. That's characteristic of an awful lot of those who buy video processors. It's certainly not true of many, though, particularly those who must have someone else choose and set everything in their system up for them, and these modes were not intended to be used by such. But there are a lot of enthusiasts in this field who will do this level of adjustment - e.g., those who tweak their system before every movie (and I've seen a surprising number of these folks).

I was a bit suprised at how well the forced 2:2 mode worked with a lot of troublesome PAL DVDs. Problematic discs like the latest Bridget Jones movie - a disc that literally every video processor exhibits some trouble tracking - never dropped out of lock even once with this new forced 2:2 mode. That's something a lot of enthusiasts are interested in. (Although whether or not they'd be watching this flick is another question. :D )

- Dale Adams
 

ihan

Active Member
Hi Dale,

The 576i film material I've tested in '2:2 forced' seems fine (only tried a few minutes worth though).

1080i 50Hz film material from the sky hd box could only be played back properly (prior to v1.03) using '2:2 odd'. It also worked in 'auto' mode in a just about acceptable manner since the deinterlacer stayed in video mode most of the time. The problems occured in 'film bias mode' where the deinterlacer would seemingly change between modes causing bluring during motion, combing and also a brief stutter at the transition. Similar problems now occur in v1.03beta with 'forced 2:2' mode, so it is impossible to playback 1080i 50Hz film correctly.

Regarding the 60Hz film to 48Hz in '3:2 forced', something looks seriously wrong to me, since, I'm getting serious stutter that is far worse than v1.01 beta.

I realise you are not responsible for the VP50; so don't worry about it. From an engineer's perspective it must be a nightmare to see your good work 'screwed up'. From my perspective, it looks like the lunatics have taken over the DVDO asylum!
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
The 576i film material I've tested in '2:2 forced' seems fine (only tried a few minutes worth though).
I've run quite a few DVDs through at 'Forced 2:2' and haven't had problems with any of them so far.

1080i 50Hz film material from the sky hd box could only be played back properly (prior to v1.03) using '2:2 odd'. It also worked in 'auto' mode in a just about acceptable manner since the deinterlacer stayed in video mode most of the time. The problems occured in 'film bias mode' where the deinterlacer would seemingly change between modes causing bluring during motion, combing and also a brief stutter at the transition. Similar problems now occur in v1.03beta with 'forced 2:2' mode, so it is impossible to playback 1080i 50Hz film correctly.
I tried 'BSG' and '24' in 'Forced 2:2' and didn't have any problems, admit I didn't try Sky Movies. I'll give some a going over later.

As far as I know, 'Auto' and 'Film Bias mode' and 'Video mode' are all the same mode but with different parameters of bias towards 'do not comb' versus 'don't drop lock'.

I am puzzled as to why 'Forced 2:2' would work with 576i, but not so good with 1080i. Why's that?

Regarding the 60Hz film to 48Hz in '3:2 forced', something looks seriously wrong to me, since, I'm getting serious stutter that is far worse than v1.01 beta.
Also run several HD DVD using '3:2 forced' and not a single issue to be seen, didn't bother with 60Hz DVD though as I guessed some would have bad edits etc.

StooMonster
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
There should definitely be a difference, and a bigger difference than with previous versions. 'Auto' mode should be the same, but 'film bias' should be less likely to get knocked out of lock.
I can see difference in 1080i50 movies and 576i film sources too. My daughter was watching 'Sky Anywhere' and 'Big Momma's House 2' and the new Herbie movie. In both these there where locks drops, i.e. line twitter and moires evident, but when I put 'film bias mode' on instead there were not.

As to SD, the CSI programmes on Five would be always dropping out of lock on 'Auto' but now do not in 'film bias mode'.

I'm starting to wonder if they didn't really screw something up with this release and these new modes. Unfortunately, there's no way I can verify this as I don't have a VP50 to test. Is anyone else seeing this same behavior?
I haven't downloaded this "public" version yet, I am still running the last "private" beta; but I am not getting all these issues, although I am goibg to look more closely later.

StooMonster
 

NonPayingMember

Previously Liam @ Prog AV
Perhaps the downscaling in iHans system is introducing the stutter. Only difference I can think of.

Dale - I totally agree with what you are saying. Which is why I'm annoyed that no improvement has been made to the auto-detection and all the attention has gone to the force mode. No processor does it perfectly, but the VP50 less than most.

The difference here is probably that I'm looking at this from a custom installation perspective. I could never ask a client to override the settings, most of them wouldn't want to know even than a VP is there. They just want the best PQ end of story. Even with "pure" sources like HD-DVD, if I leave it in force mode what happens when they get an overlaying 480i or 1080i PIP window....

Anyways, as I say glad to feel like we're moving forward again. Has been a while since we've had much of substance.
 

Dale Adams

Active Member
1080i 50Hz film material from the sky hd box could only be played back properly (prior to v1.03) using '2:2 odd'. It also worked in 'auto' mode in a just about acceptable manner since the deinterlacer stayed in video mode most of the time. The problems occured in 'film bias mode' where the deinterlacer would seemingly change between modes causing bluring during motion, combing and also a brief stutter at the transition. Similar problems now occur in v1.03beta with 'forced 2:2' mode, so it is impossible to playback 1080i 50Hz film correctly.
So it sounds like the new 'forced 2:2' mode is behaving the same way the 'auto' mode does. (?) I can think of a couple of explanations for this. First, maybe there's something wrong with the way the hardware is setup for HD sources and it is in auto mode.

Another possibility is that the 'forced 2:2' mode is never initially locking at all. I'll have to explain how the new 'forced cadence' modes work for this to make sense. When the forced modes are first turned on the deinterlacer starts in 'auto' mode. It then looks for an instance of the chosen cadence (2:2 or 3:2) which is definite and unambiguous. (The quality requirements are much higher than for the 'auto' mode to ensure that it does not lock to an invalid sequence.) If it finds this, it will lock to this cadence and remain locked to the same cadence and phase of that cadence. It will continue to check for the desired cadence and can switch phases if there's a significant indication that the phase has changed (due to something like a bad edit). However, once locked it will never go back to 'auto' mode unless it's physically forced to do so by the user switching deinterlacing modes. However, if it never accomplishes the initial locking, then it will effectively behave as if it were in 'auto' mode.

This sounds at least a little like what you're seeing, so perhaps it's never locking in the first place. I can think of a couple of potential reasons for this. Are you certain that you have the 'forced 2:2' mode chosen for 1080i HD inputs? There should be separate deinterlacing choices for different input formats and perhaps the 'forced 2:2' mode is not selected for 1080i/50. (Silly question, I know, but I have to ask.) Another possibility is a simple software error in the VP50's code and the 'forced 2:2' mode is not being configured correctly. It can be programmed so that the initial lock is very picky about the quality of the cadence indication, or it can be set up to be much less picky. It may be the case that it's being configured to be very picky when, in fact, it should not be. There are a lot of other possible configuration parameters which can affect how well it locks (e.g., the area of the image which is used for cadence detection can be less than the entire image to eliminate problems like noise at the image boundaries or subtitles), so perhaps one or more of these is not configured correctly for your situation.

Regardless of the cause, it doesn't appear to be working for you. Be sure you report this to DVDO tech support so that they at least know this is a problem. The fix may be as simple as a new software revision. It may be difficult for them to reproduce this, however, as they don't have access to the same source you do. Is there any way to send them a clip from the programs which are giving you problems?

- Dale Adams
 

Dale Adams

Active Member
Dale - I totally agree with what you are saying. Which is why I'm annoyed that no improvement has been made to the auto-detection and all the attention has gone to the force mode. No processor does it perfectly, but the VP50 less than most.
The status of the VP50 deinterlacing is about where it was when I left the company. I had completed the forced cadence modes last year, primarily due to request from some beta testers for ultra-reliable modes for HD DVD) and they're just now getting around to rolling them in. I don't believe there have been any changes made to the 'auto' modes since I left (which includes 'film bias', as it still auto-detects). Unfortunately, I never finished everything I had wanted to do before leaving, which includes improvements to the cadence detection and handling of mixed sources. They may now stay where they are unless someone else inside ABT picks thing up where I left off.

- Dale Adams
 

ihan

Active Member
Dale,

Thanks for the explanation regarding how the cadence detection/lock functions. I am absolutely certain I have selected 'forced 2:2' for sky 1080i film sources. Leaving it set to 'auto' is watchable, since it then stays in video mode (most of the time).

In addition, I reported earlier that I was getting stutter from 60Hz DVD film sources when it is set to '3:2 forced'. I can now report that I am getting the same stutter from 1080i 60Hz HD-DVD source (Toshiba HD-E1).

Test sources:
HD-DVD: Grand Prix (US release)
DVD: Flags of our fathers (region 1 release).

I have tested the scrolling white bar at 48Hz, and it is fine, so it is not the display. Also (as I have said previously) these problematic sources work ok with 59.94Hz output.
 

ihan

Active Member
At the place where 'the others' reside, cal87 has posted this, "Well, 1080p24 not working at all for me. Completely choppy video.
Before, at least it worked for a while, until the tearing occurred."

I'm glad it's not just me that has these problems!
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
ihan is right, 'Forced 2:2' is not working properly on 1080i 50Hz film, it's combing all the time.

Haven't had chance to test 'Forced 3:2' as have visitors for the holidays, but last time it worked great for HD DVD with no stutter.

StooMonster
 

choddo2006

Distinguished Member
Dale,

Thanks for the explanation regarding how the cadence detection/lock functions. I am absolutely certain I have selected 'forced 2:2' for sky 1080i film sources. Leaving it set to 'auto' is watchable, since it then stays in video mode (most of the time).

In addition, I reported earlier that I was getting stutter from 60Hz DVD film sources when it is set to '3:2 forced'. I can now report that I am getting the same stutter from 1080i 60Hz HD-DVD source (Toshiba HD-E1).

Test sources:
HD-DVD: Grand Prix (US release)
DVD: Flags of our fathers (region 1 release).

I have tested the scrolling white bar at 48Hz, and it is fine, so it is not the display. Also (as I have said previously) these problematic sources work ok with 59.94Hz output.
When do you get these stutters? I get them using the same settings from the xbox HDDVD player (still on 1.01 here though)
 

Roman

Active Member
Oh dear!

I've just spent an hour with 1.03 and have now just decided to reload 1.01, for a variety of reasons, including:

A stuttering effect when watching video material on Sky. I think this is loss of cadence lock (?).

For some reason the picture seems less sharp and occasionally shimmers.

The colour, contrast and brightness look very odd, which is strange because the VP50 didn't lose it's settings on loading 1.03.

I think I'll stick with 1.01 until this version settles down!
 

Chris5

Well-known Member
I Think I'll print some 'T' Shirts and write to my local MP, and start a 'Bring Back 2:2 Odd' campain, all I can say is "DVDO.... NOOOO!"


p.s. I'm not over-reacting? am I? ;)


seriously, I think i'll stick to 1.01.
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
ihan is right, 'Forced 2:2' is not working properly on 1080i 50Hz film, it's combing all the time.
Maybe partially right, I've just gone through 'Mr & Mrs Smith' on Sky Movies 10 HD and it hardly combs on 'Film Bias Mode' and I've had to really try to find combing with 'Forced 2:2' (although it does for a frame or two, once in a while). Also went through some Sky One HD programmes with similar results.

Wondering why the films I checked earlier were constantly combing (in 'Forced 2:2' and 'Film Bias Mode') but these ones are not?

StooMonster
 

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