DVD32R (with PSM) and Sony VW100 ("Ruby")

Black 5

Active Member
I was thinking seriously about replacing my VW10 projector with the new Sony and would be interested in there is anyone out there using this combination?

Would I be best using the component or DVI ouptuts? If the latter, where should I go for a good cable; it will need to be about 20 feet long.

Any opinions welcome,
 

Thunder

Active Member
In my experience SD material looks a little ropy on a 1080 panel:(
 

Black 5

Active Member
Is that a general comment or one based on what you've seen with this particular projector/dvd player combination?
 

Thunder

Active Member
It was a Ruby with a Arcam DV29:) It looks great with a hi def source however:thumbsup: (D VHS)
 

Black 5

Active Member
Does the Arcam output progressive - sorry I don't follow all the players out there? Wish there was a guinea pig out there who had taken the step I'm thinking about;)
 

Thunder

Active Member
Yes it does but its generally best to feed an interlaced signal over the digital connection, in this case HDMI:thumbsup: I just think 480i to 1080p is too big a jump, well over half the picture you are watching is in effect "made up"
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
I would have to say that at the price the Ruby sells for you really wouldn't expect it to have a scaler worthy of upscaling from 576i to the 1080p required for the panel with real quality? Bearing in mind that feeding 1080p (via an off board sclaer maybe) into any 1920 x 1080 projector will be fraught with issues that many many people simply do not understand. The closest I've seen a AV journo come to spelling it out honestly is Steve May with his CES reports in HCC, others including other writers for HCC/WHF really ought to listen to people who actually know about this stuff...... Find me a projector that actually can be sent 1080p over HDMI and then I will start finding out if 720p or 1080i sent over HDMI is any worse (or more likely better!). Personally, I know that currently one or two 1920 x 1080 projectors look good when the scaling is shared between the source and the projector (the cables are cheaper too.....) and one that makes a decent fist of upscaling a standard PAL DVD to anything like a worthwhile showing. Anyone that says "yes sir you will get a far better picture if you set your upscaling DVD player to 1080p output" has never actually seen one doing it over HDMI (they 99% don't work) and is not best serving the customer.....Rant over.
 

Black 5

Active Member
So Graham, are you basically saying I would be wasting my time with the combo I mentioned or just forget trying to use the digital output from my PSM and stick to component?

What are the combinations you refer to that you've seen looking good/acceptable?

Should I just accept the best compromise will be something less than 1080p for the time being and treat a Ruby purchase as an attempt at future proofing, the potential only to be fully unlocked when I eventually decide to upgrade my source or add a new one (replacement of the dvd32r is not on the horizon at the moment)? Would sticking something like a Lumagen scaler in between be a better compromise - I can see this is going to get more expensive so I'd better lay some groundwork with my wife:)
 

Thunder

Active Member
Your best result would probably be to feed the component output of your DVD32 into a good scaler such as a lumagen and then feed 1080p straight to the Sony via DVI:thumbsup: (all in my opinion of course) But I think this is where fixed panel displays fall down with a SD source, your forced to invent more than half the picture being displayed, of course when we get some proper hi-def sources you'll be sorted:smashin:
 

Black 5

Active Member
Thanks Thunder. At least going that way I would be ready with the display, though I'm still too attached to my DVD32R (I have a spare one as well!) to give that up too easily:rolleyes:
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
1080p into just about everything simply doesn't work via HDMI...Without, in the Sony Qualia's case a $6000 mod AFAIK, this is an HDMI chipset limit not a design error........... A Lumagen is an excellent device if set up properly but please do not ever get carried away with 1080p being best regardless of a display's ability, it almost certianly isn't.
You will be surprised at the result you may get by doing a bit in both source and display instead of feeding something 1080p via HDMI.

Regarding the DVD32R, the component output is the output of choice by those in the know....;)
 

Black 5

Active Member
Thanks Graham. I suppose the only thing is to take the plunge with the PJ and then see if I find the results good enough to determine whether anything like the Lumagen is needed. I'm interested in future proofing as far as possible and I think displays have moved on since I bought my 10HT 6 years ago and I'm almost certainly going to get some improvements, even if they're not at the maximum potential of the Ruby - if nothing else, from what I've read blacks and colours will be better as well as the whole thing being a lot quieter.
 

Thunder

Active Member
I bow to Grahams superior knowledge of the HDMI chip set. Its a bit **** though to produce a 1080 panel PJ that you cant pixel map with:( Get a 9" CRT:rotfl: Then you can display the source at whatever resolution you like best. My personal preferences are [email protected] and [email protected]:)
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
It is rather more complicated than that in as much that you of course actually watch a 1080p image on a 1920 x 1080 panel projector regardless of what goes in, all I'm saying is that feeding such a projector (and the Ruby leaves me completely underwelmed from a performance point of view) 1080p is fraught with difficulties (i.e. 99% of displays simply don't accept it currently via HDMI) and who is to say that the internal scaling engine won't make a better job of part of the scaling jigsaw? After all at least that bit knows exactly what it has to do in a way that no external device (upscaling DVD or scaler) can purely as the source doesn't know exactly what it might be plugged up to.....
Of course the Ruby is a step up from the VW10 but with that brings all sorts of other issues not least of which sending 1080p signals down long HDMI cables........

You might be surprised to learn that at any recent show (with the exception of one clip we showed at Hammersmith via 1080p component) no-one is sending 1080p via HDMI to a projector from the source yet, and that goes for the new crop of 1920 x 1080 plasmas due late this year (or more likely next year).

Silicon Image have now produced a chip set that can accept 1080p via HDMI but I have no idea how much work putting that into an existing model might be.
In short "just because you can does not make it best"...... Resolution is one thing but smooth motion and colour balance are just as or even more important to the viewing experience and that is where a good scaler comes in.
 

X3ELS

Active Member
GrahamMG said:
1080p into just about everything simply doesn't work via HDMI...Without, in the Sony Qualia's case a $6000 mod AFAIK, this is an HDMI chipset limit not a design error........... A Lumagen is an excellent device if set up properly but please do not ever get carried away with 1080p being best regardless of a display's ability, it almost certianly isn't.
You will be surprised at the result you may get by doing a bit in both source and display instead of feeding something 1080p via HDMI.

Regarding the DVD32R, the component output is the output of choice by those in the know....;)

Graham, as i am sure you know if you have spent time with the Ruby that it is perfectly happy with 1080p over HDMI at either 50 or 60hz. If you go in via DVI then you also have the option of 48hz.

I have just completed an install running Component interlaced from a DVD32R into a Lumagen Vision Pro, upscaling to 1080P, and the results are breathtaking, this was down a 15m Display magic cable with the PJ being sent native rate.

I am surprised that you are underwhelmed by its ability, i know its Gordons projector of choice at the moment as well.....
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
X3ELS said:
Graham, as i am sure you know if you have spent time with the Ruby that it is perfectly happy with 1080p over HDMI at either 50 or 60hz. If you go in via DVI then you also have the option of 48hz.

I have just completed an install running Component interlaced from a DVD32R into a Lumagen Vision Pro, upscaling to 1080P, and the results are breathtaking, this was down a 15m Display magic cable with the PJ being sent native rate.

I am surprised that you are underwhelmed by its ability, i know its Gordons projector of choice at the moment as well.....

Hi Eliot.
I didn't say the Ruby didn't accept this via your Lumagen(the 1%) and it is just as well as the internal scaling engine isn't very good but all 1080P feeds from the available sources might not all work as the suggestion is one of an internal limiting factor so some interlacing/deinterlacing might be going on? The Lumagen however is a cracking scaler and that would bring the results from any projector, asking it to scale up a Freeview feed however wouldn't result in the words "breathtaking". I stand by the fact that I am underwelmed by the Ruby's overall performance, the panels are far too small to be "breathtaking" and without a very high quality scaler and I have no doubt Gordon's expert knowledge of both products, the results are as I said Underwelming. I am genuinely happy to see you demonstrate this to me of course and change my view.
It does make me smile that not so long ago you would never have said such gushing comments about any fixed panel projector and when I did mention that fixed panel performance was going to kill 9" CRT you bit my head off....:rotfl:
Its a good projector certianly for the money but "breathtaking" with normally available material nah sorry not yet.....
I will certianly agree that the component output from the DVD32R is about as good as it gets though but can you see many people spending £7k on a projector and easily doubling that figure to watch a DVD at its best? I fully understand that you will show the projector to its very best as that is your job to sell them after all and I would expect no less an effort, but I can't see everyone getting that level of performance out of a "budget" 1920 x 1080 projector with less exotic equipment. No technology is that good regardless of if its SXRD, HTPS-LCD or DLP though yet;) Myself, Alan and Eric would all agree on that......
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
Graham

I think you need to spend some more time with the Ruby just to see what the competition to your panels can achieve nowdays. I think you are doing it a miss service here. For me personally the ruby has a formidable potential and I can think of nothing sub £10k I would prefer to have, panel or projector, warts and all. This is regardless of whether you feed it freeview or a quality feed like an SDI player. Yes I have reservations scaling anything from low res all the way upto 1080p but if it is done well as here it can look very good, even the mythical freeview service. [We never used to have an issue scaling LD to big numbers] Personally I would feed interlaced out of the PSM equipped player here and preferable drive via a Lumagen or even direct into the component input. These may not be Lumagen quality but they are not bad at all IMHO if you are short of readies. The PSM is 'old' now but the DVD32 when it works is more than upto the task for 20 foot component leads. The OP I think would be in for quite a treat here coupled to a Ruby.
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
Being fair I wasn't comparing it to £17k projectors and did say it was a £7k projector so should be compared with that price point, however adding the DVD32R (and we all agree that interlaced component output is top drawer) and a top flight Lumagen does bring it very much into very expensive company and therefore any device that has more than double the size panels of thr Ruby at that price point will show up the Ruby's limitations naturally, especially as many owners at a £17k budget price point will be far more likely to have £5.5k DVD players and £2.5k scalers;) I know Alan will wet himself at this but personally at the £10k price point I'd rather watch a well setup 3CX dispite resolution limitations, well until we can actually get 75MB/sec data rates and 1080p downscaled source material (a decent digital copy master starts off at 4k x 2k!) over the air waves, just don't ever stand in front of the dish though!!
Work now finished so off to watch the GP, hope it was worth recording in HD (well 720P) ;) ;) ;)
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
Are we talking here £6-7k, £10k or £17k? I thought the OP was interested in a Ruby and by inference he has like many of us here a DVD32 already. Many of us have looked at the 3CX and dismissed it.
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
Hi Nic.
I am not disagreeing with you really, for £7k it is a good projector but "Breathtaking" isn't a comment that would be used by me to describe the PQ, the price point however is pretty good. The processing within the Ruby isn't that great (sorted with a Lumagen probably), the odd colour balance brought about by the Zenon bulb in isolation isn't noticed but if you do a side by side it does "grate" eventually (again I am sure Gordon would do his best), the picture however whilst initally impressive after a while you do get that "artificial" feeling that the image is "stuck" onto the background instead of being part of the overall picture, some may like this I do not. The Ruby is obviously built to a price so many wouldn't complain naturally but the SXRD panels do tend to give uneven lighting across the image and although the size of the panels are fine for a 6ft screen, by the time you get to 8ft or more I am not convinced the panels are big enough to do a 1080 image justice. In fact I've not actually seen anything do a proper 1080 image justice being honest but maybe I'm a fussy bugger eh..... The 3CX has its faults as well but picture depth and colour balance are OK, its lowly 1280 x 720 does show now....... Now you know why I'm not in "marketing", too honest for my own good......
If Eliot wants to show me their setup, I am big and ugly enough if it sorts all my concerns I'll say so. What I have seen thus far is good but.....
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
In part probably, but calibration can only attempt to solve the colour balance issues not the limitations of SXRD or the internal processing........ The Lumagen scaler and expert setting up of same obviously seems to also make some significant difference but then it would with many other prodcuts naturally.
I would say that Eric is capable of doing a proper calibration as are the Japan factory both of those PQ were not "breathtaking" IMHO but their reports are not for a public forum.... Still it is a good projector for £7k and if it takes in 1080p (at all the various frames rates?) it is the missing 1%. If someone is wiling to show me it with all these bells and whistles, I'll be honest enough to say if it is better than the other setups I have been to. Fair?
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
Never seen Erics (yet) and have only seen the Ruby twice but I would urge you to see Elliots Sony collection :thumbsup: Yes 1080p inputs seem fine unlike some of the £17k competition :D ;)
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
Component is fine mate!
Seriously as just about everything else won't take a HDMI 1080p (50/60Hz) I'm not loosing any sleep especially as 1080i and 720p via the processor looks better than any native 1080p feed I've seen thus far. People must not forget that just about all 1080p material is upscaled anyway...... I doubt many have access to any 4k x 2k stuff that is downscaled..... and that stuff over the airwaves is a very very long way off..... As Thunder said, who is to say that a PS3 1080p output (watching a 50Gb disk movie) will be any better than a PS3 1080i output and letting the processor do the de-interlacing? I know the answer already but really really can't say so please don't ask.....
 

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