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DVD32FLR vs. CDT20R + HTPC: opinions please!

Discussion in 'TAG McLaren Audio Owners' Forum' started by Bolle, Mar 30, 2005.

  1. Bolle

    Bolle
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    Hi,

    Although I'm more or less decided, I was curious on the opinion of some of you guys. As both options feature a TAG unit, even in this forum you can pick an option unbiased!

    The situation:
    My equipment: AV32R 5.1 96 kHz, Parasound power amps, Sanyo Z2 projector. Old crappy CD player and DVD player

    My goal:
    1) High quality and convenient CD replay (preferably using the TAG sync with the AV32R)
    2) high quality feed (progressive and preferably in 1:1 pixel mapping) of my projector of DVD and TV signals.
    My use is approx. 75% audio and 25% video. I don't see a need for (high quality) SACD of DVD-A replay in my near future. I don't really intend to go down the media server route (yet).

    My options:
    1) S/H TAG CDT20R T2L + HTPC (+/- 1.100 UKP)
    2) S/H TAG CDT20R T2L + Denon DVD2910 (or something in that class) (+/- 1.000 UKP)
    3) New DVD32FLR + PSM192 (+/- 1.500 UKP)
    4) New DVD32FLR + external scaler (+/- 1.800 UKP)

    I must state that I've have not seen/heard any of these options except the HTPC, so my opinions/remarks are purely based on information from reviews/forums etc.

    Pro's/con's of the various options:

    HTPC:
    I've been using my desktop PC occasionally for DVD replay (involves disconnecting it and carrying it to the projector and hooking it up again), and with Theatertek and FFDSHOW resize to 1:1 pixel mapping the picture quality is awesome!
    + Very high/best picture quality possible
    + Very flexible in resolution and refresh rates (for example when changing projectors)
    + Can de-interlace TV signals and resize to 1:1 pixel mapping
    + Fully digital path from disc to projector LCD panel using DVI connection.
    + Can also act as HD video recorder
    + Good error correction on bad discs, ideal for rental DVD's which I get occasionally.
    + Possibly easy upgrade to HD-DVD/Blu-ray, just change the DVD-ROM drive
    + Easy to watch downloaded movies (the BMW movies are great on a projector!) and digital photographs.
    - Not very user friendly. both setting up and use
    - Prone to hardware/software 'issues', propor working is not always guaranteed.
    - Just CD replay is cumbersome as you need to have graphics on as well for control. Requires extra 'box' for stand-alone high quality CD replay
    - Not the best audio quality, RF noisy environment in he PC. I do intend to get a S/H RME card or a M-Audio Audiophile to minimize the quality loss here..

    CDT20R T2L
    So a HTPC probably still leaves me with a need for a high quality platform for 'just' CD replay without the hassle of turning on a HTPC. The CDT20R T2L seems like a good choice.
    + Available at good prices from users upgrading to DVD32FLR in the current sale
    + CD sound quality quite close to DVD32FLR?
    + T2L for combination with AV32R
    - CD sound quality quite close to DVD32FLR?

    Denon DVD2910 (or similar)
    If the HTPC proves to be too much a hassle, a DVD player like the Denon seems like a good alternative for DVD replay.
    + Quite good picture quality
    + Good de-interlacer and scaler, 1280 x 720 upscaling possible
    + Quite good audio quality, better than PC but less than DVD32FLR?
    - No possibility for TV de-interlacing and scaling for projector feed.
    - Requires extra 'box' for high quality CD replay
    - Limited flexibility in uses and future growth compared to HTPC

    DVD32FLR + PSM192
    + Very high CD en DVD-V audio quality
    + Good video quality (decent progressive scan, no scaling though)
    + Single box CD/DVD/de-interlacer solution with high quality CD replay, slight compromise in DVD picture quality
    + Can act as de-interlacer for external TV source (eg VCR, sat receiver)
    + On sale right now…
    - Not the best picture quality anymore (?), Silicon Images chipset has been passed by Faroudja offerings (please correct me if wrong), no scaling possible
    - Fairly high price (even at current levels) for a good CD player with somewhat outdated DVD replay possibilities.
    - No full digital chain from disc to DVI output. I believe the output form the DVD32FLR is internally transferred to the PSM192 as an analogue signal.

    DVD32FLR + external scaler
    + Very high CD en DVD-V audio quality
    + Quite good video quality, external scaler allows use of latest de-interlacer and scaling technologies.
    + Single box CD/DVD solution with high quality CD replay, slight compromise in DVD picture quality
    + External de-interlacer/scaler can be used for external TV source (eg VCR, sat receiver)
    + On sale (TAG) right now….
    - High price (even at current DVD32FLR levels) for the combination.
    - No full digital chain from disc to DVI output. Connection between DVD32FLR and external scaler will be analogue.

    My opinion:
    Although the DVD32FLR attracts me a lot as a very good 'all-in-one' combination for CD and DVD replay, either with the PSM192 or an external scaler, it appears to miss out on the highest picture quality possible nowadays. It is a very good player, but the technology in the PSM is not really up-to-date anymore compared to what the latest jap-boxes offer (upscaling to 720P, Faroudja chipsets). And the DVD32FLR is hampered by not offering a digital output from the player to an internal/external scaler.
    Also I feel that even for today's TAG prices the first two options appear to offer more 'bang for your buck' if you look at my two goals, good CD replay and a high picture quality feed for my projector. I'm currently favouring the CDT20R T2L and HTPC option. I'm taking a slight compromise in DVD-V audio quality in this option. And there is a risk that if a HTPC is not working out I've got no de-interlacer/scaler for TV. But as a bachelor more A/V boxes only improves your coolness to your friends…. :D

    I wish they made a DVD32FLR with a Faroudja 720P PSM board and a digital connection from the player….

    I know many of you just bought a DVD32FLR so a lot will have different opinions than mine. Please express them!

    Cheers,
    Menno


    PS: before you ask, yes it was a slow day at work today....
     
  2. ttagster

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    I think you should go for the second hand CDT20R T2L.

    "Especially at that good price" HA HA HA!!!!!! ;)
     
  3. laalves

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    The mere thought of a "memory violation" blue-screen replacing the movie I'm watching in my future dazzling plasma or pj (not decided yet), followed by a three-hour nerve wrecking troubleshoot experience to get Windows up and running puts me at bay from any sort of HTPCs for quite a long time. Blue-screens at work are enough, thank you. And the hassle of waiting for Windows to boot and stabilise before I can hear a CD, watch a DVD, watch the news.....

    FYI, if you're looking at hifibitz's prices, they have gone down 400£ for the FLR + PSM, as reported elsewhere......

    Use that 400£ saving to add to the external scaler option, if you end up by not being satisfied with "just" progressive scan (will you really be able to see the difference?).

    BTW, the FLR is a very good CD player, indeed. I was using my 1200£ Marantz CD17MkII KI (which is definitely excent) and the FLR is quite better. More resolution and tighter, stronger, better defined bass. Others report it to be on a par with the 2000£ class of specialist CD decks.

    I got recently a FLR+PSM (replaced two bits of kit in the rack!) and, if with the sort of screen I'm considering, I end up disapointed, what the heck, I'll get a Lumagen or something like it!

    Luis
     
  4. hoosterw

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    Well. Maybe not a pinned opinion but just some considerations.

    A 'well built' dedicated HTPC has NO blue screens. I have and use frequently a well built and dedicated Multimedia PC (MP3 jukebox and movie PC) in my bar and it runs without a flaw. Starting up Windows takes less time then warming up my dedicated HT Marantz VP12S3 projector and warming up of speakers and dito amplifiers.

    The HTPC is good in performance both sound and picture. My HT and CD playback on the 'normal' DVD32R and VP12 is superb. And I think (Yes I am of the opinion) that HTPC can come close but not 'up to' or 'surpass' the normal AV components of the top segments.

    HT is flexible and more user friendly in some ways. It is also more capable of several functionalities.

    HTPC is digital all the way (and no tagsync needed BTW) until that point where (and if) you want to make it analog. With standard AV components that is still rather unusual (Not impossible) or unwanted due to more DA/AD conversion steps.

    And last but not least: You are a bachelor ---> go for top of the bill you have no WAF to consider you lucky you!
     
  5. Inotrope

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    Currently. I prefer the sound of my CDT20R T2L over that of my (new) FLR+PSM; as it has a "musicality" the DVD seems to lack (which may reveal itself as the DVD "burns in").

    I think comments made above regarding HTPC are true - I am not aware of many "audiophile" components made for PC's.
    Thinking of the R&D in Hi-fi directed at shorter, cleaner signal paths, and purer cleaner power supplies - are these not "alien concepts" in PCs? Please correct me if I'm wrong!
     
  6. Bolle

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    Thanks for the reactions so far guys! As I was expecting, a lot of different opinions... which doesn't make the choice any easier...

    My choice is mainly between:
    -CDT20R T2L + HTPC
    -DVD32FLR (non PSM) + de-interlacer/scaler. The new Pixelmagic Plasma Enhancer looks like a good addition in that case. Faroudja DCDi, various output resolutions, DVI out and a build in TV tuner. Estimated price $999.

    And although I have no WAF to consider unfortunately I have to many expensive hobby's to fund so there are choices to be made :(

    Cheers,
    Menno
     
  7. hoosterw

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    So do I. I have a wife and hobbies. Can you imagine?
     
  8. Bolle

    Bolle
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    Yes, but think of all the savings you make by not having to go to the pub every friday night and buying drinks to get some... err... 'action' ;)
     
  9. hoosterw

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    Sure that the development in HTPC has catching up to do, but as far as I am aware that is exactly what is happening. The PC world is very well aware of the 'audiofile' requiremenst and as before with the PC companies they don't need much time to catch up AND surpass!

    For example: There are some very decent 7.1 PC speakers systems arround and also some very sophisticated Hi-End sound cards, sturdy design, gold connectors etc.. Take a look at the PC power supply developments over the past 2 years... see: http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w049atx12v/w0049atx12v.htm That is a high end device built for performance PC's were there has been a lot of attention for clean and stable output power and no EMC problems.
    There are also drives (CD/DVD) that peform well beyond average stand alone players.

    Take a look at the latest graphics cards and its possibilities, that goes beyond any today's existing scaler. Take a look at: http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx800/aiwx800xt/gallery.html and go to BOARD SHOT. No audiofile development?


    Just some more thoughts.
     
  10. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Hi guys.....

    I'd say the HTPC route is worthy of a great deal of consideration here, most of the plus points and a good arguing of the supposed bad points have already been made (no they don't crash at all if built nicely....), I'd add that ASUS motherboards have the ability to play CD's with the PC in standby with a few keys on the keyboard doing the necessary "play/stop etc." However using one as a storage server brings a whole world of nice touches if you pick a decent front end like Xlobby...... The bad news is that to build one properly and have the sound output worry any TAG CD/DVD player will cost more than £1100..... To do everything you would like it to do will cost £3k at least...... but it is the ultimate in upgradability and you don't need to send it away for 6 months to get fixed either.... :devil: Video quality on a decent HTPC will be the match for the DVD32R etc. no problem at all.....and with hi-def just around the corner a wealth of files just waiting to be watched awaits assuming copy protection doesn't spoil the party......... At worst it will play everything currently available though which in my case is about 10 years worth so.........

    So I know it wasn't on your list of options currenty I'd go for a cheap DVD32FLR as it is every bit as good as a £2k CD player and build a dedicated HTPC using the basic building blocks and adding features as you need them and you can use the DVD23FLR whilst you fiddle as a video source.
     
  11. hoosterw

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    Hi Graham,

    I do not fully agree with yr opinion on the cost of a good HTPC. I have just bought components to build one for a friend of mine.

    It is really a high end one, specs as follows:

    * MSI 925XE NEO Platinum54G, I925XE, ATX, Socket- 775,Serial ATA,GbLAN,Dual-DDR2,PCI-Ex16
    * Intel Pentium 4 660 3.6GHz Socket LGA775, 2MB, EM64T, BOXED m/koeler
    * 2 x Crucial DDR2 PC4200 1024MB CL4 Unbuffered,1.8V,128Meg x 64, 240pin
    * Saphire Radeon X850XT 256MB GDDR3 PCI-Express retail
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    * eMagic Cardreader 16 in 1
    * Windows XP pro UK SP2 nieuwe licensie

    Cost price here in NL 2400€, inc VAT! You have to built it up yourself though. And this is a beast I would say. It only misses a TV/Tuner card.

    Rgds Hans
     
  12. laalves

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    Just a bit more against the HTPC..... A Windows PC, is a Windoes PC, whatever add-ons inside.

    I have seen a few hundred PCs in my life, worked and fiddled in a few of them. From experience, no two PCs are alike, even if exactly in the same hardware/software configuration, same model, same everything. One likes this teh other don't, one may a crash a lot the other never. All a matter of luck.

    I have a quite good Windows PC, that I built and use for work. It doesn't usually display bluescreens unless I abuse it. My wife has a supermarket variety Compaq, and it crashes a lot. I have no reason to believe that the same things may not end up happening with any HTPC.

    Maybe if the start shipping LinuxHTPCs, things may change.

    BTW, I do have a top of the line ASUS motherboard, which is supposed to play CDs when the PC is off (well, not really off). During the couple of times the feature worked properly, it was cool, but I've given up trying.

    And the PC is mostly on, anyway.

    Conclusion: with the current state of the art, I would never buy a HTPC. And upgradeability, is not really upgradeability. Bus technology keeps changing, which that in 5 years at most, you'll want that new AGP 24x vga, which your motherboard can't deal with, so off it goes the motherboard, RAM and processor. With a bit of badluck, the ATX power supply standard will also be outdated in a few years, and you'll end up by having to throw away even the fancy 200£ casework.

    Luis
     
  13. hoosterw

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    I am sorry Luis, but I dont agree with you.
    I have now already built quite some HTPC's and normal PC's. If you build them wel and don't fiddle with them they do what they are supposed to do and dont crash nor go blue screen.

    But... most PC's aren't built well, they are built to price targets and that is what is causing most of the trouble. A just on the edge configured PSU is the worst you can have on a PC (as on an AMP BTW).

    I give that guarantee on the PC's I built anyway.
    But don't fiddle with them, don't load strange softwares, don't let the kids play on them. That is a gurantee for the bad things that can happen.

    Rgds Hans
     
  14. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Mine's better :devil: :devil: :devil: But seriously many people wil be buying this stuff at shop prices and by the time you factor in decent DVD/HD playback software and RGB capture and a decent sound card (192k/24bit minimum really!), remote control, RF mouse/keyboard and a Terabyte of storage, mnay would be rather close to my figure or beyond if it was built up professionally for them.....Especially to silent spec.....
    I will certianly agree that a reliable PC is easy to achieve these days if you pick the right bits and build well and leave well alone once setup.....The days of crashing PC's are a distant memory these days for me as well.....
     
  15. SimonInd

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    Another vote for the HTPC here, as I'm a bit on the lazy side I've always opted for Dell 8xxx machines from the Outlet which have a pretty high spec. and run quietly and reliably. Add in a decent soundcard ( M-Audio Audiophile 2496 - £60 or an RME Digi96/PAD £200 ) and a small LCD monitor to turn on/off for playing music and you should be sorted. For controlling duties a Gyration RF suite will set you back less than £100.

    So for under a grand ( assuming you spend no more than £650 on the basic PC - I bought a P4 3.4Ghz w/400GB HDD and 1GB RAM for this in January ) you get an all digital post-processed video solution ( via FFDShow and then DVI to the projector ) which few/no DVD players will match for picture quality and a good music player onto which you can store your CDs so you don't need to get up to change them.

    If you're really concerned about reliability then don't connect the machine to the internet and resist the temptation to meddle once you're happy with your setup. Mine is on 24x7 as it records freeview as well. I also surf on it and in the 18 months of reasonably heavy use I've had very few problems. I have always been a bit sceptical about Windows' reliability but XP Home is more than adequate for this sort of application.

    My PC feeds the AV32R via co-ax S/PDIF as the AV32R has better sounding D/As than the M-Audio 2496, to my ears anyway. I also feed a BenQ PE8700+ via DVI and I'd be amazed if a DVD player can match the picture quality from the PC.

    Cheers

    Simon
     
  16. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    One word of note about the SPDIF outputs on these sound cards, we have found that jitter/stability and general noise has far less issues with the dearer cards when fed into the AV32RDP or 192R, the difference is quite noticable between an RME and a soundblaster type card.... I cannot begin to explain why but the difference is clearly heard even by the wife.....
    I'd also add a note of caution when buying PC's off the shelf and double check that they have enough PCI slots for addtional cards as PCI-e motherboards may only have a couple of PCI's which might not be enough for a soundcard/clocking module, capture card and TV/SAT card also bearing in mind the graphics cards which tend to take up two slots............ As an aside I've been trying those new Buffalo TeraStations as out of sight/ear shot large storage devices and they are pretty good and the beauty is if you fill one up you just plug another one into the network and off you go....we have fitted 4 off 400GB disks to them so you get over a whole gigabyte of usable RAID5 storage....... By the time you rip 100 or so DVD's, a decent CD collection (at uncompressed rates) and a stack of HD movie files you will want secure backed up storage as you won't wnat to do it all again, I'm just about to put a third unit in the loft (which now resembles a server room!), this also keeps the actual HTPC very quiet......
    PQ is really very very good as many now agree, CD sound quality is knocking on the door of £1k+ standalone CD players as well.......add a nice VFD display to list track info etc. (in matching TAG blue of course) and it all looks very nice....
     
  17. Bolle

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    Hi all,

    I've decided for the CDT20R T2L & HTPC option. While I'm fiddling with the HTPC my trusty old Sony will do the DVD honours.

    Graham, regarding sound quality of the HTPC, I'm thinking of getting a S/H RME 96/8 (100 pounds on ebay give or take?). How will this stack up quality wise compared to say a good DVD player?

    (although if I run into a S/H DVD32R I might get weak.... what a sexy machine!)

    Cheers,
    Menno
     
  18. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Hiya.
    The RME digi96/8PAD with word clock module is what we use for our playservers system here, the digital output of that one is perfectly acceptable which is why we use it.........The HDSP9632 card is better though but costs 3 times as much.....(which is why we don't), but at home I prefer the 9632.....Its only money but at £100 for the Digi96/8 PAD you can't really go wrong.... Do check RME's web site though as the latest drivers and firmware do solve (and always add) various issues...
     
  19. Bolle

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    Ok, thanks Graham.

    Will look more into building a HTPC after my vacation, somewhere next month.

    A quick question, I beleive there are various types of RME 96/8 cards, can't recall all of them but I believe a 'plain' 96/8, a 96/8 PAD, 96/8 PST. Any differences or preferences regarding sound quality?

    Cheers,
    Menno
     
  20. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    The differences are in the I/O one is just RCA's, one is balanced XLR and the other is AES/EBU from memory, its all on their web site just pick the one that best suits your needs. Double check that it has the correct breakout lead for your setup as some only come with a basic lead and require additional purchase for the bells and whistles leads. I only have experience of the Digi96/8PAD (cinch) as that one has the breakout leads we want (or rather they do now we moaned at them)..... ;)
     
  21. hoosterw

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  22. GrahamMG

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    They are also high quality cards and not exactly cheap..... We are not made of money here so use the RME, the Lynx cards have been used in the past but in this money conscious world...... I'd use one indoors if someone would buy me one!
     

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