DVD Recorder muddle

Discussion in 'Digital TV & Video Players & Recorders' started by malcom, Aug 26, 2001.

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  1. malcom

    malcom
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    Having read about the arival of DVD recorders being iminent. The Philips in a couple of weeks and a Panasonic machine around Oct.

    I searched the web for details and found plenty of info on the philips DVD recorder but nothing about the Panasonic.

    I e-mailed Panasonic for info and about when to expect to see them here in the UK.

    There reply was that there is no machine planned in the near future for the UK.

    I then read in the Home Cinema mag that a Panasonic DVD recorder should arrive here in the UK around October this year. The model number was included and the Home Cinema Mag have done a limited revue on a sample machine that was provided.

    I e-mailed Panasonic again to see if they could clarify the conflicting facts.

    Their Reply. None at all.

    Will Panasonic let Philips get a hold of the DVD recorder market by not shipping a machine any time in the near future. I cannot believe they can be that mad.

    I also phone JVC UK to ask about there likely plans for a DVD recorder. They denied any knowledge about the fact that there are at least three different DVD recorder formats coming out. They could not state which format they would be producing because as far as they new there was only one format. What a load of tosh.
     
  2. Starburst

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    Are Panasonic part of the DVD consortium that would explain why they don't remote hackable dvd players and might explain why no details are emerging since they are still in a bit of a format war. Phillips are jumping the gun with a different standard which isn't part of the DVD consortium in the hopes of establishing a market for their system.
     
  3. malcom

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    Sorry Kevo but your logic is illogical.

    An analog tuner puts out vhs quality? I don't know what equipment you have? Please tell so that it can be avoided!

    The picture quality I get from my analog TV tuner is fine. The same cannot always be said for some of the channels from a digital tuner.

    Whatever the quality of the output from whatever type of tuner it will be further degraded by the limits of the VHS technology. 240 lines compared to 500+ with DVD or D-VHS.

    Yes it would be convenient to have a digital tuner as well as analog tuner built into a DVD recorder. Do you know of any VHS recorder with a digital tuner?
     
  4. Kevo

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    I don't know much about this model but one thing I do know is, that it has an analog tuner !!!

    Surely this is a mistake.

    That's like having a DVD player that can only ouput in VHS quality.

    Anyone forking out £1300 for this needs serious treatment !
     
  5. malcom

    malcom
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    Some 20 years ago I purchased the first generation Betamax recorder for £800. Someone has to be mad enough:). So I suppose 20 years on and loads of inflation you could argue that £1300 is a bargain! The straight jacket still fits as well:).

    As tempting as Recordable DVD is I don't think I could justify or sensibly afford the £1300 price tag. when they become about £800 then temptation would really set in. £500 and I would be out the door like a shot and buy a dozen.:)
     
  6. Ars longa, vita brevis

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  7. Kevo

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    Thanks Confucious, that's exactly what I was getting at.

    No Malcom, I don't know of any VHS recorder that has a digital tuner. Don't you feel there should be?

    Yes I agree that they should come with a dual analog/digital tuner like the new IDTVs.
     
  8. MartinImber

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    I think DVD+RW will be an early sucess simply due to being back compatable.

    I paid £800 for a Beta deck 12 years ago it's only worth about £500 now <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
     
  9. malcom

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    How soon the DVD+RW will reduce in price will I think depend on how soon it has competition. I.e. In the form of DVD-RW and DVD RAM. I fear prices won't reduce for quite some time as it appears to be less than clear if competition will be strong in the near future.

    The reason I say that is because I recently e-mailed Panasonic who have been reported in the Magazines to be releasing their first DVD-RAM machine in the UK around October.

    Panasonics reply to me was that they have no plans in the near future to release a DVD-Recorder. I have re-emailed Panasonic and the Mag that has reported the October release probability. There is a deafening silence from Panasonic. No reply this time! The mag e-mail was only recent and am still hoping for some clarification.

    As I said before if there is no competition then I think prices will remain high for the foreseeable future. The price of D-VHS remained high for a long time. Even now after more than a year the cost of a D-VHS machine ranges from the £1300 down to around £700. Regards. Malcom
     
  10. Ars longa, vita brevis

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  11. malcom

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    I agree with your conclusions about DVD-RAM as of this moment. I have read though that some future DVD players may well be able to play DVD-RAM discs. Future Hitachi players I believe?

    One comment from a Mag reviewer which at the moment puts me off DVD-RAM was that the top quality picture setting was only near DVD quality.

    I don't think a DVD-Recorder would be worth it's salt if it can't at least match typical DVD quality.
     
  12. Ken S

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    <a href="http://www.qed-uk.com" target="_blank">www.qed-uk.com</a> had the Panasonic DVD recordable listed at £831 and the Phillips at £1048. This is a reputable site that I bought my 36in widescreen TV from. Anyone tempted?
     
  13. Duncan Harvey

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    cant see the point with DVD Recorders at the moment.

    To get a decent amount of storage at a decent bit rate you need a damn site more than the 4.7gb that a single layer DVDR will offer.

    The price per hour of storage is frightening, and combine this with no single standard and you have a recipe for disaster.

    I'm more than happy with my DVHS decks - great quality and 17.25 hours of storage for the price of a pro grade SVHS tape - £6.50

    For recordings off commercial channels I can record at the high 14.1 mbps bit rate off air and then dub down to 4.3 (to cut ads etc)with practically no difference in quality. And for BBC channels the 4.3 rate is excellent.

    You can get the JVC model for £700 now so I'd urge anyone who needs lots of storage or who has a large VHS/SVHS collection to switch to DVHS.

    For my needs (can't afford DV) - the perfect format.
     
  14. malcom

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    True. DVDR is not cost effective at the moment. That could soon change however!

    I have considered D-VHS as a temp alternative and the problem is as far as I am concerned I don't believe D-VHS has any realistic future and therfore could end up with a pile of stuff archived to a format that no longer has machines on the market.

    As for the format war with DVDR. That is not a major problem as long as DVD players are available for the forseable future. It seems that at least two of the formats will allow the playing of their recorded disks on most ordinary DVD players. Also the DVD-RAM format DVD-R disks once finalized can also play on normal DVD players.

    A problem would arise if normal DVD players were replaced only by DVDR's and recordings from each others machines were still not compatible.

    I somehow think that DVD players will be around much longer than the expected life span of the coming batch of different format DVDR's.
     
  15. malcom

    malcom
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    Ken S wrote..

    <a href="http://www.qed-uk.com" target="_blank">www.qed-uk.com</a> had the Panasonic DVD recordable listed at £831 and the Phillips at £1048. This is a reputable site that I bought my 36in widescreen TV from. Anyone tempted?

    <br />Reply...

    Thank's for the link. Very tempting! It just goes to show the flexibility range of pricing that is possible already.
     
  16. Duncan Harvey

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    whilst its true that DVHS is potentially not a long term solution, it does offer relatively cheap, bulk MPEG2 storage here and now.

    I'd be interested in recordable DVD if and when blue laser recorders come out. This will solve the storage issues. I could then (theoretically!) download my MPEG2 recordings straight onto disc.

    As it stands, I just dont see recordable DVD as offering me anything better than what I have at the moment.
     
  17. malcom

    malcom
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    Hi. Blue laser recorders! Is that the format being developed by Sony? I seem to remember reading about a DVDR format with a 20GB disk capacity from Sony that would be suitable for recording HDTV transmissions. Regards. Malcom
     
  18. encaser

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    If you aint all got the skinny on the Philips try this site,<br /><a href="http://www.dvdplusrw.org/video/dvdr1000faq.html" target="_blank">http://www.dvdplusrw.org/video/dvdr1000faq.html</a>

    it has faq's etc. and tells you even about noise levels due to the fan inside the unit to stop/slow early jedi fatigue.<br />An interesting point about the Philips is I read somewhere taht it should be double side compatable so longer record lengths when they release such blanks as they are spose to be.<br />Regards
     
  19. encaser

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    rude to follow one's own post but it's bl**ody late, here's a Panasonic press release for those who aint seen it<br /><a href="http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/pressroom/DMR.htm" target="_blank">http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/pressroom/DMR.htm</a><br /> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
     
  20. malcom

    malcom
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    Many thanks for the links encaser. Malcom.
     
  21. encaser

    encaser
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    No probs Malcolm, a bit more to confuse! <br />The Philps seems to offer the best quality recordings, with the lowest setting being equal to svhs for 4 hours so not bad really. Of course what we all want is what a TDK spokesman said is being modelled for 2/3 gen', that is, a unit with a hdd and dig tuner so the best choice of what to and at what level bit rate choice of record.
     
  22. malcom

    malcom
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    Such a machine is mouth watering <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> I have read in a review that the 4 hour setting gives far from ideal picture quality. The reviewer described it as vhs quality assuming the recording was made by a worn head playing a worn tape. The review was complementry about the other settings however! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
     
  23. encaser

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    well the Philips is in the shops any day so a demo will clear it up! Though I wouldn't be surprised if the lower setting is arse cause I remember reading the spiel saying about adjusting bit rate according to motion - i.e. football. As we all know when it comes to dig stuff skimping on those bits leads to watching moving wall paper!<br />I'm dieing to get one but these gen machines may not be worth it. <br />Encaser considers Budhist following for patience lessons...God damn it...!!
     
  24. malcom

    malcom
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    It's in the shops ok but getting a demo where I live is like asking for a free gold nugget bar. Have tried but failed miserably. UK retailers! what can I say?

    Thanks to the links you gave I have now located the dvd+rw forum which is a great source of information while I am still trying to see the actual thing work for real!

    All I need now is to find a forum for the DVD-RAM and DVD-R formats which would keep me busy until the prices came down to about a couple of hundred quid <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
     
  25. encaser

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    Couple of hundred quid, blimey Malcolm, taking the vid market lead that'd be 2010!!!!<br />As for demo's I'm gonna try me local Hughes as they are spose to be getting...drum roll...2!!<br />But I feel another prob in the air is gonna be whether they actually hook it to a good source or do the usual as with tvs - "It's got a great pic honest guv but the feeds are crap in here, though you can see it's gotta better contrast levels than the others..." Uhuh.<br />May well be worth waiting at least a year, as the new panasonic is a 2nd gen now so another year and who knows.<br />One thing I'm interested in is the fault correction possibility, or lack there in, cause I don't know about dvd recorders whether if they error on a record it'll ruin the whole session or not like cdr? Ooh and the noise/heat levels, being a heavy pc user I'm concerned by fan noise and longevity. A 5 year warranty would be an absolute must.
     
  26. Duncan Harvey

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    one thing I'd like clarified is what they mean when they talk of SVHS or VHS quality.

    Surely the line resolution is the same whatever bit rate you use to record an image. The bit rate presumably "just" means that the lower you go, the higher the incidence of artefacts.

    re blue laser recording - yes it would offer a sufficient capacity and read/write speed for hi-def recordings, but it would also allow standard definition recording at a high bit rate for a long duration, and theoretically remove one of the advantages of tape - eg people are used to getting 6hrs worth out of an E180 that they can pick up for a quid.
     
  27. malcom

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    HI Encaser/Duncan I came across this web link.<br /><a href="http://www.avland.co.uk/panasonic/dmrhs1/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.avland.co.uk/panasonic/dmrhs1/index.htm</a>

    <br />Which describes a Hard disc drive and DVD-RAM recorder from Panasonic available sometime this year.

    It's strange! Only a few weeks ago in an e-mail reply I had from Panasonic they denied that any DVD recorder would be available in the uk in the near future. Now it appaears there are two models becoming available! <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
     
  28. Duncan Harvey

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    scan lines are irrelevant, I know its down to vertical resolution.

    My point is that a lower bit rate shouldnt mean a lower vertical resolution, merely more artefacts across the same resolution.

    Hence saying that digital tv or MPEG2 recording is "vhs quality" when the bit rate is low seems a bit misleading to say the least. VHS is between 240-260 lines but DVD is quoted as being 500+.

    Therefore will a DVD/MPEG2 recording encoded at 9mbps have the same vertical resolution as one recorded at 2mbps - but the difference in quality will be down to artefacts rather than vertical resolution (eg with a stillish image - eg a newsreader in a studio - the 2mbps pic could look as good as the 9mbps)
     
  29. Duncan Harvey

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    well yes, digital encoding is especially sensitive to the law of garbage in, garbage out, its just that it annoys me when TIVOs, DVDR's, digiboxes etc make reference to "VHS quality" for their lowest level recordings, when this is fundamentally not an accurate basis for comparison.

    I saw a review of a DVHS where it claimed the LS3 mode (recording at a bit rate of 4.3 mbps) offered "vhs level recordings". This is just not true. The picture quality of an LS3 recording has (to my eyes) always far surpassed VHS (and SVHS) in terms of resolution and detail.

    I suspect its just that reviewers etc lack the vocabulary as yet to describe lower bit rate recordings and hence fall back on VHS terminology.
     
  30. Robert Greenham

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