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dvd ram or dvd rw or HDD?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by jopereira, Nov 26, 2004.

  1. jopereira

    jopereira
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    I was half way through "dvd ram or dvd rw?" thread, but I couldn't read any more... sorry.

    My question is why so many arguments? Aren't they 'dying'?

    I'm new to this, and thus I don't have inertia towards one of the formats...
    Think: why do I need DVD-RAM? Because it is a better format to manipulate, more like a..... HDD!!.

    Please, everyone, buy a HDD machine with DVD-RAM, +RW or -RW, whichever fill your needs. But you really don't need a DVD-RAM, nor a DVD-RW in VR mode (which is about the same in compatibility terms). You NEED flexibility of a HDD, and a DVD recording format that can be read in most DVD players. I know I 'cannot' edit in DVD-Video mode, but I really don't need it. I burn a DVD already edited! (in HDD...)

    The argument that RAM is the most popular format is wrong because we are shifting to HDD machines that will make the advantages of RAM equal to zero!
    Why buy a 9Gb disk if I can buy a 80Gb one? The true of yesterday is not true anymore. Just look around: the tide is turning.

    I bought a Pioneer, when I really wanted a +RW compatible machine (I have many +RW disks). So, why did I buy Pioneer? Because it was unnecessary to have +RW compatibility, just needed to buy a few -RW disks; I won't use DVD to direct record anything, I'll use HDD instead. The DVD recording is just to take records out of the recorder, so any COMPATIBLE format would do. "Compatible" means +/-RW, not DVD-RAM.

    If you already have a recorder without HDD and it fulfils your needs, just keep it. If not buy a HDD machine.
    If you don't have money to buy a HDD machine, just wait three months; then you'll have a few recorders to choose from with the money you have to spend now.
     
  2. HMHB

    HMHB
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    I use RAM because I have an E85 in on room and an E55 in another room, therefore I have rewritable media that can be played in both rooms. I also use RAM so that I have a copy on DVD that I can add to or edit at a later date without it sitting on the hard disk for ages.
     
  3. jopereira

    jopereira
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    That's all right, since you don't have to share with friends or relatives, which can be a concern to many of us.

    Is that a problem? :rolleyes:
    Don't see the problem of having recordings sitting on HDD for ages as long as I have space available for other recordings... to me is (much) worst to have to load the correct disk to add/view recordings.
     
  4. HMHB

    HMHB
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    At the moment I'm transfering a lot of VHS tapes onto the HDD so I quickly run out of disk space, so moving the stuff onto RAM frees that space up for me.
    By the way, where abouts in Lisbon are you ? I stayed in Sintra for a couple of weeks during Euro 2004 and think Lisbon is a wonderful city (apart from the mad drivers!)
     
  5. redsox_mark

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    I'm new too, but I think I'm finally starting to get it..

    From a user standpoint, I see 2 reasons for a rewritable DVD format as well as an HDD:

    1. To create a video DVD which I can watch on a player in another room (and one which I just want to watch once, i.e. I don't want to archive this).

    2. If I record a lot, and want to say make a DVD of 12 episodes of a serial over 12 weeks, I may want to put these on a recordable DVD and add to them (as JohnG said) to free up disk space.

    For me, 1) is important; and our other player can handle -RW or +RW. So I want a machine which can support one of these. We will do this a lot, and I don't want to burn an DVD-R each time. If I'm to give a copy to a friend I probably would go for DVD-R, as I do that less often, it will be more compatible, and he/she doesn't have to worry about giving it back.

    I don't think I'll record enough that 2) will be something I do much anyway...but if I do need to do this then I think either RAM or -RW would do...

    I'm still deciding, but leaning towards the Toshiba XS32. For 1) I'll use -RW. For 2) If I need to do this I'll use RAM.

    Mark
     
  6. jopereira

    jopereira
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    The lack of +R(W) reading capability put that one away. I use lots of +RW in my computer. I often rent (Blockbuster) movies taking advantage of promotions and I don't have the time to see them before is time to return (many only 1 day). I copy them to PC, convert them to 4,7G and see them on my home cinema.
    The +RW is necessary at least reading it as it seems to be a better format PC wise (formating and recording faster).

    Others, read friends (in Portugal), also tend to use more +RW than -RW.
     
  7. jopereira

    jopereira
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    Yes, but with a HDD system I can also not record to HDD and put the movie directly on DVD.

    Well, Sintra is not Lisbon, but it's more beautiful. To be correct, I don't live in Lisbon but my house is about 2-3 Km from city limits (Benfica is the last Lisbon place in my house's direction).
    We are not mad drivers, just stupid ones! :thumbsdow
    Hope you had a good time.
     
  8. maldonian

    maldonian
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    I wonder if you know whether DVD-RAM recordings made in the E55 have the high speed dub to DVD-R flag enabled? The online E55 manual does not appear to mention high speed dubbing (presumably because the E55 does not have a HDD). However, if you record on DVD-RAM in an E55 then transfer the disc to an E85 the flag has to be either on or off. So I wonder what you see if, for example, you go into the Create List screen on the E85 (by selecting New item in the Create dubbing list screen)? Do the recordings on the DVD-RAM have the high speed dub symbol in the left hand column?

    I suspect the answer is no, because (again looking at the online manual) I see the E55 has a 'Hybrid VBR Resolution' setting. The E85 manual says this is fixed when the 'DVD-R Rec for high speed mode' setting is on.

    Apologies for being a bit off topic, but I see you have both machines. I have an E85 and I was wondering about getting an E55 as a second recorder.
     
  9. Rasczak

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    No they don't.

    There are numerous reasons why you need DVD-RAM and/or DVD-RW VR mode with a HDD machine:

    1) The ability to transfer recordings to a PC without converting to the DVD-Video format (this avoids drawbacks such as file splitting).

    2) The ability to be able to dub losslessly to disk for long term archiving, e.g. if you want to record several episodes of a TV series to a single DVD-R but don't want the first recording cluttering up the HDD in the meantime.

    3) The ability to conduct high integrity backups (i.e. on DVD-RAM) that offer a significantly different disk structure to DVD-RW

    4) Temporary storage whilst you clear the HDD for formatting.

    5) On Panasonic/Samsung machines (DVD-RAM only) the ability to store Digital Camera JEPG 'albums'.

    With any HDD/DVDR 99% of the time you'll use DVD-R. But occasionally you will find a use/need for re-writeable media.
     
  10. jopereira

    jopereira
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    File splitting is by no means a drawback. At most a little annoying.

    We don't need VR or RAM to do that. Video mode is enough; I'm doing that with cartoons for my daughter. In the end, I'll have a normal DVD-Video.

    Don't understand the meaning of 'high integrity backups'. Sorry.

    Video mode also do that; no need for a special format.

    That's a (good) Panasonic feature (that I was not aware of), not format related. Sony also does 2-pass encoding, and that's not DVD-RAM fault.

    It really depends on use. To me, this is not true, but I admit that many will only use -R most of the time. I want a DVD to be just like a VHS cassete, and the rewritable thing is (very) importante (to me!).
     
  11. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Okay - how can I conduct a file demux without re-encoding joins then if the files have been split into 1GB files iaw with the DVD-Video specification? I would be very interested to know what solution you have found to this because most of us the the Digital Forums have been trying to find a solution for several years!

    In which case something has to give somewhere. You either have a HDD file structure that isn't true VR compatible (Sony for example), uses the DVD-Video format (Philips) and thus is totally limited or converts the files back into VR mode (Panasonic, Toshiba). If you want to keep VR features you cannot beat keeping the original file in it's original format.

    Oh well...

    See cavaets posted above!

    It is format related as it requires VR mode. If you add such files to Video mode you will affect compatibility on some DVD players.
     
  12. jopereira

    jopereira
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    Rasczak, I won't reply to each of your comments (some of them I simply cannot reply as I haven't tryed to do that), but let me say I cannot find a single limitation to my Pioneer editing mode. OK, one, I cannot use HIGH-SPEED copy with frame accurate editing, but that's a MPEG-2 limition, right? And until now I didn't needed frame accurate editing. GOP editing is more than enough to a VCR (read, DVD recorder) user.

    I haven't tried it because I didn't need so, but can't you join two MPEG-2 file without reenconding? Try http://www.tmpg-inc.com/product/tme_feature.html to see if it can help.

    BTW, Pioneer (and perhaps others) can join two MPEG-2 streams together in HIGH-SPEED copy (each means, no re-encoding). Why can't you do that on a PC?

    When I said Video-Mode is enough, I mean to 'normal' users (I'm not calling you anormal :), just not an ordinary user). VOB are 1Mb limited, but I don't remember seen a transition from one VOB to the other, did you?

    Still null at 'high integrity backups' thing.

    VR will affect compatibility on (virtually) every DVD Player.
     
  13. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    The 1GByte split in VOB files is only due to the ISO file format, you do not really have split files, they run continuous (assuming they are the same title) as otherwise you would see a break in playback during the point one split ends and the other begins. DVD Players generally ignore the ISO file format and read from the UDF one anyway, ISO is only a bridge for compatibility with PC file systems, and that is why you see VOBs split logically when viewing from a PC as ISO is an older standard that can not cope addressing large files. In reality it is one big file sat on the disc for each title, the ISO bridge causes them to look split from a PC, and they copy off that way of course.

    To get a full VOB that isn't split from a DVD Video with out re-encoding use DVD Decrypter and set it not to split the VOBs! Result one big VOB file for each title, you might need to demux and remux this to get a nice genuine Mpeg stream, but certainly no re-encoding involved.

    Been doing this for a while, do not know why there is a big mystery about it, unless I have mis-understood your statement. :thumbsup:

    Regards

    Philip
     
  14. jopereira

    jopereira
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    Thanks for that explanation. Although I haven't find a single limitation because of this 1GB break, I didn't know that, in fact, the file is continuous.

    BTW, is it mandatory to have a break in playback during file splits? Shouldn't player have a buffer big enough to make it smooth? Aren't out there players that can make a layer change 'invisible'?

    Ps- My Pioneer 535 player shows a small stop between layer changes, don't know about 720H recorder (haven't tried it yet)
     
  15. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    You misunderstood my statement - but as jopereira missed most of the points I was making I really don't have the time or enthusiasm to explain further.
     
  16. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    The file splits do not really exist as far as the DVD Player is concerned, and if authoring a DVD where VOBs do exist as separate files on the hard-drive they are sorted into the correct order when burnt so one follows on exactly from other and the DVD Player just sees a continuous data stream, it doesn’t have a concept of a VOBs as it users a different method for reading the data. It is only when seen on a computer that we see the VOBs due to the ISO file system, which is only there for compatibility with PC file systems.

    There is a physical break however where the layers change which is why it gives a stutter as the DVD Player takes a moment to focus and find the 2nd layer, some DVD Players will use memory to buffer the video to avoid this break, a lot do not bother.

    The spec for DVD Video came out a while back now when memory was expensive, so the specification doesn't cover buffering the layer change, and is why data on DVDs is continous so the laser and servos just has a lazy job following a neat unbroken spiral.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  17. Benfica

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    There is another issue, and that is that DVD-RW in VR mode should be full interoperable between 2 different brands, I mean, you could HS dub to a DVD-RW in VR mode from the HDD of a sony recorder and you should be able to HS dub back that DVD-RW to the HDD of a Pioneer recorder (I think this is a valid statement, if it isn't please feel free to correct me).

    But You can't do that with DVD-RAM from/to a panasonic recorder. Panasonic use a "diferent" resolution (704x576) that others like Toshiba don't use (instead they use 720x576). So with DVD-RAM you can not HS dub from the HDD of a panasonic recorder to a DVD-RAM and then HS dub from that DVD-RAM to the HDD of a toshiba recorder. You could only use a real time dub. So, there is no lossless interoperability between panasonic recorders and other brands (at least with toshiba).

    So, bottom line, if you choose panasonic and use DVD-RAM you are tied forever to panasonic. Good for them .... not so good for you !

    Hope that helps
     
  18. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    That's not entirely correct: DVD-RAMs from Panasonic are perfectly inter-changeable with Samsung and JVC recorders. They also work fine on the new DR3. Don't confuse a 'issue' with the RDXS32 as a whole world problem.
     
  19. Benfica

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    I stand corrected !
     
  20. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    :) I should also point out such issues such as these are a recorder related and not a DVD-RAM/DVD-RW issue. For example some users have issues importing DVD-RW VR Mode recorded on Sony DVDRs in HQ mode into VR capable products, such as TMPG Encoder Author, as the top quality mode is just outside the specification. Another example is the JVC range which uses illegal resolutions with both DVD-RAM and DVD-RW. The fact is whilst the specifications for VR mode are laid down some companies do make slight modifications on the basis that it is largely incompatible anyway so what does it matter.

    It's not all gloom and doom though: there are plenty of examples of compatibility between 'VR' recorders as well. For example although they are not HighMAT machines or officially DVD-RW compatible the Panasonic range will read most DVD-RW VR disks and even do high speed dubbing from them. And another example is the new Denon players which, although only officially support DVD-RW VR, actually play from DVD-RAM as well.

    To overcome the issue of compatibility between VR recorders/players various testing labs have been established. All the DVD-RAM producers, for example, have been pulled together on this score by the RAMPG.
     

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