DVD HDD Recorder with Digital Tuner Questions

paulbasel

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I must admit that I am totally confused even after reading extensively about DVD HDD Recorders and talking to various AV salesmen about these devices. Here is what I have and what I want:

What I have:

A "HD Ready" (no built in digital tuner) Sony TV with an HDMI input which is connected to a Technisat Digit HD8-C Set top box connected to a local cable TV system here in Switzerland. This functions perfectly and I can receive 135 analog and digital TV stations. The digital stations function perfectly and the HD stations look spectacular.

What I want:

A DVD HDD Recorder that can capture the programs from all 135 stations, both analog and digital.

From what I read this is possible, yet the salesmen I talk to say that there are no devices that can record digital TV channels. However, I read that some DVRs with hard drives do have digital tuners. If they have digital tuners doesn't that mean that they can record digital TV channels? If there are devices that will do what I want, can you let me know the manufacturers and the models are available (European only).

Confused in Switzerland

Paul
 
I must admit that I am totally confused even after reading extensively about DVD HDD Recorders and talking to various AV salesmen about these devices. Here is what I have and what I want:

What I have:

A "HD Ready" (no built in digital tuner) Sony TV with an HDMI input which is connected to a Technisat Digit HD8-C Set top box connected to a local cable TV system here in Switzerland. This functions perfectly and I can receive 135 analog and digital TV stations. The digital stations function perfectly and the HD stations look spectacular.

What I want:

A DVD HDD Recorder that can capture the programs from all 135 stations, both analog and digital.

From what I read this is possible, yet the salesmen I talk to say that there are no devices that can record digital TV channels. However, I read that some DVRs with hard drives do have digital tuners. If they have digital tuners doesn't that mean that they can record digital TV channels? If there are devices that will do what I want, can you let me know the manufacturers and the models are available (European only).

Confused in Switzerland

Paul

There is no experience here of the nature of broadcasting in Switzerland so it is not possible to advise as to what your full or best options are, but a few points can be clarified.

The first is that DVDR's can record from any standard video source provided that source has an output suitable for feeding into it.
[ Conversely PVR's can only record from the source they receive via their 'platform source' i.e. Aerial, satellite or cable ]
So if your cable boxes have scart outlets for example, then it is possible to feed that source into a DVDR for recording purposes.

However, this is never an ideal arrangement because it means the source and recorder are not integrated and thus timer recording is much less flexible.
Also as the source device is a single channel source, you cannot record one channel whilst watching another.

Any system that allows you to do that must have dual channel [ i.e. dual tuners] capability.
Those two tuners do not have to be in the same device. One could be in the TV for example.
The complication for you is that you are using a cable service and such tuners are not put into TV's - at least not here in the UK.

In reference to the digital tuners in DVDR's that you mention, they will be for receiving whatever terrestrial digital delivery system exists in Switzerland - for which you would require a conventional aerial.
Given that Switzerland is a mountainous country - terrestrial broadcasting may not have been significantly developed - I don't know.

In the UK when requiring a recorder for cable systems, the cable supplier usually has a dedicated dual channel PVR recorder of their own , solely for use with their own system - Have you investigated that?

Thereafter - users may additionally have a DVDR for archiving material permanently to disc from the PVR recorder.
 
Gavtech

Thanks for replying to my query. I did not realize that the AVForums was only devoted to the UK. I thought it was a worldwide forum. I'm not sure I understand everything you told me but let me see if I can say it in my own words and then you tell me if I am on the right track. I am a newbie at this stuff, so please bear with me.

In reference to the digital tuners in DVDR's that you mention, they will be for receiving whatever terrestrial digital delivery system exists in Switzerland.

Only about 8% of homes here have terrestrial digital television. I have a cable system which requires a set top box (for digital stations and HD) that accepts a standard DVB-C, QAM 256 feed. In your statement above, are you saying that only digital stations from terrestrial digital can be recorded on a DVR?

The two tuner problem is not a issue for me. I didn't state in my first post that I already experimented with a DVR, it is the LG HR400. It programmed itself with every analogue station, but will not accept any digital stations. I was told by the salesman that it had a digital tuner but apparently it does not. One thing is for certain, it will not record digital stations, it doesn't even see them, even though when setting up the stations one can switch between analogue and digital. I tried several times to setup the digital stations. It scans the frequencies just fine but doesn't store any stations.
In the UK when requiring a recorder for cable systems, the cable supplier usually has a dedicated dual channel PVR recorder of their own , solely for use with their own system - Have you investigated that?

Our cable company does not sell or have their own set top box. We are free to buy any STB we wish as long as it accepts a standard DVB-C, QAM 256 feed.

The Technisat STB that I have has both SCART and HDMI output connectors. I use only the HDMI output. I have experimented and connected the SCART connections directly from the STB to the LG DVR and it will record the analog stations, but not the digital ones.

Also as the source device is a single channel source, you cannot record one channel whilst watching another.

Actually I can. I have a HDMI switchbox and I connect the cable feed to the STB and then from the STB to the DVR, then loop from the DVR to the TV. Then I connect the STB via a HDMI cable to the B switch and connect the DVR via a HDMI cable to the A switch and finally the "out" HDMI connection via a HDMI cable to the HDMI input on the TV. I can start the start the recording on the DVR on one channel and then switch the box from A to B and watch another channel via the set top box. It even works when programs are setup to record in the future.

That is not my problem. It is the fact that this LG HR 400 will not accept digital stations. It records the analogue stations just fine. But I need to know if I am doing something wrong with this DVR or whether I need to return it and get a DVR that has a digital tuner and can actually find the digital stations coming from my source.

Paul
 
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Gavtech

Thanks for replying to my query. I did not realize that the AVForums was only devoted to the UK. I thought it was a worldwide forum. I'm not sure I understand everything you told me but let me see if I can say it in my own words and then you tell me if I am on the right track. I am a newbie at this stuff, so please bear with me.



Only about 8% of homes here have terrestrial digital television. I have a cable system which requires a set top box (for digital stations and HD) that accepts a standard DVB-C, QAM 256 feed. In your statement above, are you saying that only digital stations from terrestrial digital can be recorded on a DVR?

OK - There are two factors to consider here in regard of that question.

Normally a DVDR is effectively two boxes in one- that is to say - it is a receiver and a recorder in one box.

The receiver is defined by the type of tuner which could, conceivably, be based on any of the 3 platform types: Terrestrial, Satellite, or cable.
I have heard of DVDRs based on terrestrial and satellite but I have never heard of one based on cable... and judging by your account of what you have been told, it would appear to be the same in Switzerland.

Therefore... assuming that to be the case, you could not get a DVDR that would receive the cable transmission that you currently receive.

However - you CAN record the digital stations from your existing cable box provided it has outputs to do so.... which can be fed into the DVDR.
But as said earlier, timer control is poor by this method.


The two tuner problem is not a issue for me. I didn't state in my first post that I already experimented with a DVR, it is the LG HR400. It programmed itself with every analogue station, but will not accept any digital stations. I was told by the salesman that it had a digital tuner but apparently it does not. One thing is for certain, it will not record digital stations, it doesn't even see them, even though when setting up the stations one can switch between analogue and digital. I tried several times to setup the digital stations. It scans the frequencies just fine but doesn't store any stations.
Unfortunately I cannot examine the detail of that type of model as in the UK that model number is an LG Bluray player.
But generally here I'm clutching in the dark because I know nothing of systems in use in Switzerland.
You seem to be implying that you had this unit connected direct to the cable system - not an aerial - and we have no equipment remotely like that in the UK.
That you could record a separate channels implies that the DVDR was using its own tuner - which to me implies an aerial. [ unless cable suppliers are multiplexing analogue on your cable system ]
It would be better if I said less in this regard because I cant say anything useful.


Our cable company does not sell or have their own set top box. We are free to buy any STB we wish as long as it accepts a standard DVB-C, QAM 256 feed.


The Technisat STB that I have has both SCART and HDMI output connectors. I use only the HDMI output. I have experimented and connected the SCART connections directly from the STB to the LG DVR and it will record the analog stations, but not the digital ones.

This part does not make sense to me.
If the unit will output the digital channels - via scart to a TV- then it should be possible to record them by connecting that to a DVDR.
Unless it is specifically restricted in your locality, and either the Technisat does not output the digital channels via scart, or it does but they are copy protected channels - in which case the DVDR will prevent you recording them, albeit I would expect you to get an onscreen message saying so.


Actually I can. I have a HDMI switchbox and I connect the cable feed to the STB and then from the STB to the DVR, then loop from the DVR to the TV. Then I connect the STB via a HDMI cable to the B switch and connect the DVR via a HDMI cable to the A switch and finally the "out" HDMI connection via a HDMI cable to the HDMI input on the TV. I can start the start the recording on the DVR on one channel and then switch the box from A to B and watch another channel via the set top box. It even works when programs are setup to record in the future.

That is not my problem. It is the fact that this LG HR 400 will not accept digital stations. It records the analogue stations just fine. But I need to know if I am doing something wrong with this DVR or whether I need to return it and get a DVR that has a digital tuner and can actually find the digital stations coming from my source.

Paul

AS said - I don't have any tech info about this unit - and I know nothing of your local systems so it is difficult to make any useful comment.
All I can say is that it would normally be possible to record digital channels fed via scart into a DVDR.

What you are saying above suggests to me that you are recording analogue channels directly and internally using the tuner of the DVDR - In other words you are not recording ANY channels provided by the technisat. Neither analogue nor digital.

That perhaps needs verification one way or the other.
It's also strange to me that a cable box would have a 'TechniSAT' name which suggests a satellite receiver rather than cable box - but that may be simply a brand name peculiarity.
 
to add to the above , BUT to try to keep it simple

what you need is any dvdr device that can record either from a scart or composite output from your cable or satellite box , and your cable or satellite box has to be able to deliver this scart or composite output

its irrelevant what tuner is in your present or future recorder as you are unlikely to be able to use it , so your recorder has to be able to record from a scart or composite input , and thats all it has to do

the rest is down to your cable or satellite box , and what it can output at any one time

sometimes the scart will be blocked when hdmi is used , so I suggest you test this box into your recorder by scart or phono leads with no hdmi leads plugged in

once you know what it can output , you either use your present or future equipment as a pure recorder , recording from those same signals

the technicalities are basically irrelevant

all you need is a composite or preferably scart rgb output from the cable or satellite box , and a recorder that can record from one of its inputs

you may find you already have the equipment required

but as gav says , its unlikely that you will find an off the shelf unit that can record from cable or satellite digital signals , which is why you need a cable or sat box to convert those signals into usable composite or rgb scart signals that a recorder can accept ( this may be your present recorder )
 
The LG HR400 in the UK is the same machine that I have except the UK version has Freeview installed. It is a HDD DVD Recorder that has a separate Blu-Ray Player. An unusual combination that appealed to me until I found that I couldn't record digital stations. In my research in the last 24 hours I finally found out that this machine has a DVB-T tuner and therefore I assume will not record digital channels from my cable STB. The salesman knew I had a cable service and he said that this recorder would work just fine. Link to the UK version: LG HR400 Video Players - Blu-Ray player with HDD - LG Electronics UK

its irrelevant what tuner is in your present or future recorder as you are unlikely to be able to use it , so your recorder has to be able to record from a scart or composite input , and thats all it has to do

ramjet, you are telling me that the LG recorder I have will be able to record both analog and digital stations and that the tuner has nothing to do with it. However, I have attempted to connect it to the STB with a scart cable and it still will not record the digital stations. Maybe I am doing something wrong but I am following the instructions to the letter and I know that the connections are correct. I have also done as you said, i.e., to connect only the scart cable without the HDMI cable and it still doesn't work for digital stations.

Even if I could get it to record digital stations (using scart or composite) I still would like to have a functioning tuner DVB-C QAM so I can record one station and watch another. I have managed to find other people with the same issue and some of them found some DVD Recorders with DVB-C tuners. Here is a list. Not all of them are HDD recorders.

LG DR787T
LG RC797T
Philips DVDR3575H/37
Sony RDR-GXD455 with (ATSC/NTSC/QAM Tuner)
Toshiba 40RV525U with QAM Tuner
Toshiba DVR650
Samsung AR-650

When I search for stores that sell these machines, I come up empty, either they are listed as "unavailable" or "not in stock". Methinks that perhaps some have been discontinued. Any thoughts?

You seem to be implying that you had this unit connected direct to the cable system - not an aerial - and we have no equipment remotely like that in the UK. That you could record a separate channels implies that the DVDR was using its own tuner - which to me implies an aerial. [ unless cable suppliers are multiplexing analogue on your cable system ]

The DVDR is not connected to an aerial, I don't own one. It is rare to see a rooftop antenna in Switzerland. The analog and digital stations come via a cable into my home from the cable company. And yes, as I said above, it does have its own tuner, but unfortunately it is a DVB-T.

This part does not make sense to me. If the unit will output the digital channels - via scart to a TV- then it should be possible to record them by connecting that to a DVDR. Unless it is specifically restricted in your locality, and either the Technisat does not output the digital channels via scart, or it does but they are copy protected channels - in which case the DVDR will prevent you recording them, albeit I would expect you to get an onscreen message saying so.

Sorry if I gave you that impression but, I never tried hooking the STB directly to the TV with the scart cable, but I will give that a try. So, if it can display the digital stations, you are saying that the DVDR should be able to record them if connected via scart to the STB regardless of whether it has a tuner or not. As I said, I have tried this operation with no success. Maybe the tuner has to be deactivated for this to work, but I see nothing about it in the manual. I don't know for sure, but I doubt if our cable company is copy protecting channels. We now receive about 100 digital, 65 analog and 8 High Definition stations and there is no monthly charge for any of them.

What you are saying above suggests to me that you are recording analogue channels directly and internally using the tuner of the DVDR - In other words you are not recording ANY channels provided by the technisat. Neither analogue nor digital.

I'm sure that is what is going on, but as I said, I can't get it work to record digital any other way.

It's also strange to me that a cable box would have a 'TechniSAT' name which suggests a satellite receiver rather than cable box - but that may be simply a brand name peculiarity.

The company makes all three devices, S T and C. Maybe they got started making satellite boxes. TechniSat Digital: Digital receivers

Guys, if you have any more time available would you have a look at the specs of that LG HR400 and see if there is something I am overlooking in trying to get the beast to record digitial stations. You've already helped me greatly so I realize this is asking a lot.

Paul
 
I dont know about any of the models you mention and obviously you need to look at forums for your own country for local knowledge about what people are using in your country

what I can tell you is that ANY dvd recorder will record from its scart or composite input sockets , providing you have selected that input using the input button ( or av button )

you have said you cannot use the LG tuner so dont bother trying , and the same will apply to many other recorders too

what I would do is this , connect the cable box to your tv using scart and check for picture and sound on the av input

assuming this works , put the LG on standby , and remove the scart plug from the back of the tv , and plug it into your scart input on the LG , then take another scart from the scart output ( scart to tv socket ) and plug that into the same socket where the cable box was plugged into in the back of your tv

having done this you should see your cable box on the tv as the LG should have loopthrough through the scart sockets ( my sony recorder does , as do most if not all recorders )

now switch the LG out of standby and use the LG av input select button to select the scart input from the cable box , you should see the cable box channel , check this by changing the cable box channel using the cable box remote , when satisfied its working , leave it on a cable box channel and press record , your channel should now be recording to the LG dvdr recorder

do a 5 minute test record , stop the recording , and then check the title list and play it back

you are now recording what you are watching


forget about dual tuners , and watching one channel and recording another , until you get the above basics working

once you can record what you are watching , we may deal with abilities to watch one channel and record a different channel , meaning you need 2 cable tuners in some way , shape or form
 
Thanks ramjet.

I'll try exactly what you described this weekend and let you know how it turns out.

Paul
 
ramjet

I was able to finally connect the STB to the DVDR and record analog, HD, and digital stations. The up-conversion of recordings on the digital stations seems to work quite well and the quality is quite good, of course not as good as viewing the hd or digital station directly, but acceptable. I found that the HDMI connection did not interfere at all with the recording so I was able to record and watch the program in HD simultaneously with output to the HDMI connection on the TV.

The only issue remaining is that this approach does not allow me to watch one channel while recording another as we have already discussed. In your last post you indicated that we could tackle this issue after I have the recording process working. You will recall that my TV is HD ready, but has no DVB-C tuner, that the LG HR400 has a terresterial tuner and only records analog stations with its onboard tuner. I do not wish to buy a new TV in the next few years and I cannot find any DVB-C QAM DVDR HDD machine anywhere so I'm not sure how to resolve the issue. I would welcome any ideas you might have.

Paul
 

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