DVD format wars: Blu Ray

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by nunew33, Aug 7, 2002.

  1. nunew33

    nunew33
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    What do people know about this?

    I understnd the current format limitations, ie:
    DVD RAM - only one that can act as a PVR but incompatable with most DVD players
    DVD+RW and -RW - No PVR (as no random access all sequential) success of eithwr depends on who can flood the market first.

    All are limited to 4.7G single sided with some double sided on their way in.

    All limited to a couple of hours high quality.

    But what Ive heard is Blu Ray has potential for much greater capacity. Does anyone have insight into where this technology is in terms of time to market and technical specifications?

    To start this discussion look at this
    http://www.matsu****a.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en020219-4/en020219-4.html

    **** = S*H*I*T without the * the forum edited it out
     
  2. Squirrel God

    Squirrel God
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  3. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Hilary who?:confused:

    I wonder if it will accept s****horpe?
     
  4. Squirrel God

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    Hilary Swánk (there's a way around these things, but not with URLs unfortunately :()
     
  5. Tomas L

    Tomas L
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  6. nunew33

    nunew33
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    So it holds 27G is single layer single side and is random access and enclosed (the only 2 benefits of DVD RAM).
    Is backed by Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony and Philips.

    Why then are people buying recordable DVD players? Moreover why are phillips panasonic and pioneer pushing these products knowing something better is around the corner?
     
  7. MartinImber

    MartinImber
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    Lets try!

    Darby Glass is based in S****horpe

    Matsu****a are the parents of JVC and Panasonic

    Hilary S**** starred in Boys Don't Cry
     
  8. MartinImber

    MartinImber
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    This is bloody stupid - NONE of those are swear words

    One more

    Thomas Crapper invented the flushing toilet
     
  9. MartinImber

    MartinImber
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    Oh god this is absolutely pathetic, I cannot even mention where the head office of one of our major customers is based!
     
  10. kevb

    kevb
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    Funny isn't it somone tried it out in a thread about Hilary swánk, as Squirrel God mentioned earlier.
     
  11. nunew33

    nunew33
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    No-one interested in discussing wether Bluray is a serious viable progression or wether the current DVDRWs will inhibit any technological progress until their development costs are recouped?

    And following the swear word digression, how come words like Dixons and Comet are allowed?
     
  12. Xeonic

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    Simple. In the real/marketing world the "best" has never been about technologically superior,it's what can sell the best. PCs v Macs, LP v CD, Mp3 v WAVs, betamax v VHS e.t.c. In all these cases the product with the supposedly superior format didn't always conquer.

    Blu-ray or whatever with R&D, standard ratification, production e.t.c. is maybe about 3 years away minimum, if it ever arrives - DVD recorders are here now, and with the new philips models can recorder up to 2.5hrs at full res on a single sided discs costing about a fiver. That's no mean feat.

    Also think about DVD logistics a minute - 27G discs means either increased quality or increased time, and most likely high disc cost at first.

    Quality - 1920x1080 DVDs are no use to the average viewer in europe, without a projector/plasma and with no HDTV.

    Time - Taking this route we're back to 15 bits of things on one disc a la video. At least there's random access and picture indexes, but it's still not such a big thing - recordable DVD has those now. Ok, maybe B/ray is good for all those 4 hour features ;)

    After all this, I can't play the disc on the DVD upstairs, at a friend, in the car, computer .....

    In short, yeah blu-ray might come, but if you want to record HQ stuff now, don't sit back and wait forever!

    Err, hopefully no excluded words in here .... :D
     
  13. kevb

    kevb
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    I am no expert but on paper Bluray is defiantly a step forward in storage terms. I first heard about it 3 years ago. I don't think we will see it hit the mass market for some time if ever. DVDR and RW has started to get a foothold in the consumer marketplace.

    Anybody correct me if I am getting this wrong on this following bit.

    I was reading a thread somewhere talking about Hi Definition DVD and that all the studios had met to discuss standards with some electronics giants. Bluray was the preferred format. Only Warner Bros disagreed and wanted to go with a red laser product.

    Along with Bluray you also have the emerging DVHS format to contend with.
     
  14. nunew33

    nunew33
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    I would imagine though that this technology would find its way into IT way before they become domestic players (eg Hard disks and DVD).

    The issue about Random access is quite a big deal as DVD recorders dont have it with the exception of DVD RAM which most people agree isnt going to be a format winner. Random access negates the need for a HD recorder as it can become effectively a PVR. I am very interested in getting onto the digital bandwagon. But the rifts that exist between the current offerings in terms of DVD RW formats and its separation from HD make me think that blu ray is almost a convergence and therefore sure to be dominant despite its lateness to market. But then again it could be argued that its a recordable version of SACD, a level of quality thats not really needed.

    I have a DVD RAM in my PC (£350 at the time) and regret jumping on the bandwagon so early, I wont be making that mistake with a consumer video device!!
     
  15. Tomas L

    Tomas L
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    Blu-Ray might hit the US market as early as next year, but the main purpose for Blu-Ray is to store HD material. Since we don't have HD in Europe and probably won't for many more years, who knows when (if ever) we Europeans can buy a European SD Blu-Ray recorder or player?

    http://www.dtvmax.com/dvd.htm

    Blu-Ray thread on AVS:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118893
     
  16. Tomas L

    Tomas L
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    DVD-multi might be the best solution for us Europeans, DVD-multi includes all formats except +RW and +R. Players/recorders should be released sometime this year.

    http://www.dvdforum.com/tech-dvdmulti.htm
     
  17. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Surely this is a serious contender for the PVR market in the UK. A lot of people complain that their HD based PVRs need a bigger disk. With a potential 50GB bluray disk you have a PVR with more capacity than Sky+ and the ability to easily swap out the media (rather than an upgrade). You can archive complete, series on one disk, digital editing would be a piece of cake. Youd be able to store a couple of weeks worth of movies whilst on holiday. Just think 20 years worth of MP3 on one disk. The possibilities are endless!!!!
     
  18. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Wheres DVD+RW in that list. Its omminously missing?

    Added: Boy do I need glasses!!!!!
     
  19. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I'm interested in how many people think DVD-RAM isn't a major contender for the present DVD Recorders. Considering DVD-RAM has picked up 70% of the the US and Japanese markets, 50% of the European Market and a significant part of the camcorder market I would say it's doing quite well. This is especially true as it has been included in the DVD Multi format (unlike +RW/R).

    I got a DVD-RAM/R drive for my PC eons ago (because it offered the backup/randon access features I needed) and partly got the DMRE20 based on this (on the principle of why buy two sets of different media?). The easy editting on the PC of the DVD-RAM .VRO files makes it a simple painless process to author DVD-Rs (I did my 350th this morning :)). Accordingly I intend to get a HDD/DVD-RAM combo later this year/early next which will satisfy my recording needs until a larger capacity disk solution arrives (perhaps Blu Ray).
     
  20. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Rasczak,
    Do you know if that market share in the US and Japan, is due to technical ability or other issues such as cost of media, first to market, etc?
     
  21. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    The market share is partly due to the fact it was first out, has instant access and already has a number of uses (Camcorders, DVD Recorders, PC Solutions). I'm sure both +RW and -RW will soon get more applications/uses out there but I just find it interesting that people write off a format that is holding it's own remarkably well at the moment.
     
  22. nunew33

    nunew33
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    This months essential Home (cant remember of its entertainment or cinema).Does a review of all three formats and touches on bluray but not to any depth.

    Kind of poopoos DVD RAM as clunky and not usable in most peoples dvd player. Isnt an issue if you have a low spec DVD Player as a recorder could become the player, but its an issue if you have a high quality player. Suggests that +RW is better but doesnt have backing of DVD forum, predicts that -RW will win.
     
  23. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    IMHO there won't be an outright winner to this format war. I see three reasons for this:

    1) As has been mentioned, Blu-Ray and other, high capacity, technologies could be with us in a few years giving todays DVD recorders a shelf life of five to ten years (still long enough to consider getting one).

    2) A second point is that, unlike the Betamax/VHS war, all machines can record write-once media that is compatible with other players (DVD-R disks are as little as £2.00 each now).

    3) All formats have PC/other applications meaning that availability of media will not be such a concern.

    DVD Recorders are linked much more closely with the PC Market than anything previously from Home Cinema. Multiple technologies can survive and prosper and I think this is what will happen with the DVD Recording market - at least until all formats are all wiped out by the first 27GB solution in X years time! :D
     
  24. malcom

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    Rasczak you are probably correct but I personally don't see any point what so ever in the +RW format. As a Panny owner I see that +R or +RW is just not needed. But you are right all the formats will probably survive in differing degrees.

    By the way. DVD-R discs are now available for 87p not £2 and they work!!!! For the most part...
    ;)
     
  25. Rasczak

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    I tend to agree but I was trying to be tactful to all those who have purchased the Phillips models :D As you say DVD-Rs are cheap at the moment (so are DVD+Rs but not quite so cheap and not quite so many companies making them).

    The +RW format has a battle on it's hands considering it has not been included in DVD Multi (will Philips make it's players DVD Multi and give the competition a boast - which may not be returned - or risk being the only one not to have the official logo on their players?). Additionally, on the PC anyway, +RW can only do instant access with a software upgrade (is this even available yet?). Furthermore, for all some people's whinging about the (removeable) cartridge in which DVD-RAM disks come it keeps the disk clean and protracts it's reliable recordable life considerably - a +RW (or -RW) disk that gets dirty can soon become less reliable.

    I do believe ALL the formats will survive though until a new large capacity media arrives - each of the companies supporting each format will just keep making their own DVD Recorders with no convergance other than those wishing to comply with the DVD Multi format.
     
  26. encaser

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    The +R +RW lot should receive a shot in the arm next year, as two major Taiwanese players are putting out chips/boards for this format. They will be cheap to that of competitors and aimed for 2003 Xmas consumer machine takeup. So the battle will remain bloody for some time...
     
  27. PeteM

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    I'm quite suprised with the success of DVD-Ram, this is the one format I assumed would quickly fall by the wayside due to issues with backwards compatibility.

    I currently do not have a DVD recorder and have no plans to buy one in the short term, however if / when I do I'd probably go for a player capable of recording +RW or -RW media, simply because I know that I would be able to make recordings compatible with normal DVD players such that if the format I chose to back fails I will not end up with a pile of unplayable disks. With DVD-Ram I see this as a potential possibility, it may be superior to +/- RW but I don't want to take the risk of owning the betamax of the DVD world!

    As for Blu Ray, all talk of this has gone very quite, this may be deliberate as the manufacturers want you to buy the existing technology and not hold out for something new, however a Blu Ray player should be backwards compatible with standard DVD, if and when they appear.
     
  28. Rasczak

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    But of course as the .VRO file format of the DVD-RAM disks has been included in the DVD Multi Format such disks will be playable in most DVD Players. Additionally all DVD-RAM systems record onto the universal DVD-R. Your only risking incompatibility by purchasing a +RW/+R system which is not part of the DVD Multi format.

    There will be no such thing as the Betamax of the DVD World - that is a certainty - the write once media ensures that as well as the fact that all three formats are PC technology which, so to speak, Home Cinema systems are just employing. Thus media availability is assurred as is compatibility.
     
  29. nunew33

    nunew33
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    But if Bluray enters markey say 2004 it will hit with early adopter premium
    After a year we will see first to market price drops there shouldnt be a format war so this may take longer as no vendor will have format competitive advantage. so potentially end of 2005 we will see affordable consumer Bluray devices.

    So if I was to buy digital recording today (to be replaced in 2005 by bluray ) in DVD format at £600 I am effectively paying £16 per month for 3 years which is the same as buying a sky plus £300+$360 subscription). So looks like Tivo a winner for digital recording at £400 for three years (£11 per month). But then I am stuck with a digital recorder that requires another media for permanant storage.

    I could buy aSVHS VCR at £150 that will tide me over for three years (£3 per month) that has an easily exchangable media, has 400 lines reasonable quality, but no durability - but should be ok for 3 years

    Decisions decisions.

    I think I will stick to the VCR option and wait for bluray.

    Or at least until tescos have a wharfdale multi DVD recorder that they give away with a 12 pack of luxury toilet paper
     
  30. Rasczak

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    You should NEVER do maths like that or you won't buy anything! :D

    Being serious - your right - all three formats are a relatively short term investment but, in Home Cinema, what isn't? Even if Blu Ray comes along at the speed your suggesting a DVD Recorder brought now will be around 5 years old - ask yourself how much of your setup is five years old (VCRs don't count!)?
     

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