DvD audio player and bass management.

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by DonMaico, Jun 30, 2004.

  1. DonMaico

    DonMaico
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    Please cguys I need some advice . I am just in the process of buying a new Sub woofer( BK xls200) and it was suggested to me that I should check out the bass management of dvd player( toshiba 530) as some can be very rudimentary in that department. Dont entirely understand what is meant by bass management but I assume that it is something performed by the onboard DAC. My confusion is somewhat conpounded by the apparent fact that sacd players have no bass management.Anyway I checked the tosh manual and could see nothing related so I must assume it hasnt got it. So now I am looking to buy a new player. The question is which one. Pioneer do several, of which the dv 656 seems most attractive. Its a universal player too and multiregion. another player that caught my eye is the Harman Kardon dvd 31. I mentio this one because I own a HK 5500 reciever and it seemed to make sense to match it with an HK DVD A player.If any of you guys can give some adfvice I,d be most grateful as I dont want to make another mistake.Cheers!
     
  2. Triggaaar

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    Your DVD should output DD & DTS to your HK5500 digitally (SPDIF). You're HK5500 will then do the base management for 5.1 etc. Your DVD player would need base management if it were outputting 5.1 via analogue - say for DVD-Audio.

    Edit - more rambling...
    So unless you want DVD-A, you don't need your DVD player to do base management. Although a DVD player could decode the DD or DTS, and send the signal via analogue to your receiver, on most systems, the decoding and base management abilities of the receiver will be better than that of the DVD player, so we just use SPDIF.

    SACD players having no base management - the idea with SACD, is that all of your speakers are full range, so base isn't sent to a seperate sub. That is not the case with DVD-Audio, which does use the .1 (sub).
     
  3. DonMaico

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    yes I know about the DTS/DD aspect, Triggaaar, but I want to be able to play DVd audio which I can now ,but the bass is somewhat lacking particularly in the rears (KEf 55s). So I decided to buy a sub.
    All my manual tells me about analog adjustment is setting the speakers to small and the sub to on. Also there is something about adjusting delay time but no mention anywhere of bass adjustment.
    As far as sacd is concerned looks as though if were to buy a universal player such as a Pioneer 656, then I would have to set it to stereo as my rear speakers are too small.
     
  4. Triggaaar

    Triggaaar
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    If you DVD player has analogue outputs for your surround speakers & one for the sub, then it will be doing base management. Your manual doesn't necessarily need to say its doing it - just as you HK5500 manual may not say it does base management. Buying a sub would therefore be a good option. You can then try the DVD-A, and see if you feel your DVD player is doing a good enough job.
     
  5. DonMaico

    DonMaico
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    yse I will try it out first. My concern came about after posting to someone on this board, who told me that some players have very rudimentary bass management and that maybe I should look for a player that offers grearter flexibility. Mind you he did go on to tell me that he was no expert on DVD players . If its something that just happens automatically then thats fine.It just seems odd that whilst pioneer universal players mention it in their spec there is absolutely nothing about it on my manual.thanks anyway!
     
  6. Triggaaar

    Triggaaar
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    It's true that some players aren't good at base management, as it's very difficult to get right (this is from what I've read, rather than demos). Took Arcam a while to go from the DV88+ to DV89 because of that. I just didn't realise from your first post that DVD Audio was important to you, as if you weren't using DVD-A, you wouldn't need to worry.
     
  7. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    Indeed it did take along time to get a proper bass manager coded and then debugged for our DVD players but now it's done and works just fine :)

    You can get this bass manager on a DV89 (now discontinued and so sometimes available at very good prices) as well as the new DV79 and of course the top of the line DV27A. It includes delay management for pairs of speakers, level setting for all speakers and a variable crossover frequency from 50 - 150Hz, on DD, DTS and DVD-A.

    I am confident the sound quality (and video quality) of any of these will see off the competition.

    HTH.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  8. DonMaico

    DonMaico
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    Its not hugely important to me but now and again I lke to play it therefore I'd like to get it right. I bought the Tosh on the back oif favourable reviews( and a favourable price it has to be said) and then when I enquire about a sub the response I get is beware of the players bass management - something I'd never heard of before and am still not really much wiser as to what it entails. I assumed that if I set the speakesr to small( in the players menu) then all the lower frequencies would be diverted to the sub and thats it.Obviously not.
     
  9. Stereo Steve

    Stereo Steve
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    My Tosh SD9500 had no bass management either which is a prime reason I sold it.

    Bass management reffers to how the low frequency sounds are dealt with. If you have no bass management then your player will send the 5.1 DVD-Audio signal to your 5 speakers and the sub. If you have no sub then you will just get 5.0 like you do with DD/DTS and your low end will be limited by your speakers ability.

    Bass management reffers to the large/small and crossover settings. I believe it also refers to speaker distance delay settings but not sure on that. If you set your speakers to large then they will all get sent their full range signal. You should do this if you have no sub. Most sub owners will set their speakers to small. This then creates a cut off point (crossover) at which the low frequencies are diverted to the sub. Usually this is around 80hz. It's good because you can divert lower frequencies to the sub, theoretically allowing your main speakers to perform better on the high range stuff. You can also have large settings with a sub but set the sub to only perform below the point at which your main speakers run out of puff. Usualy a high level connection would be used for this.

    SACD players can have bass management and most do. Some don't allow you to set speaker distances though. The problem is that the hardware is not yet widespread to apply bass management to the hi res DSD SACD signal so the player has to convert it down to PCM (as used in CD) first so you lose quality. This is a minefield in itself so we won't go there. Suffice to say, you can have bass management with SACD.

    The Pioneer 656 is a good player and has fairly good bass management facilities that will allow you to get the best from a sub setup with SACD or DVD-A.

    This is the problem we face at the moment as a digital connection for SACD/DVD-A has yet to reach mass market. My Pioneer AX5/757 combo sends the SACD or DVD-A signal straight to the amp vie iLink and then I can apply bass management at the amp as I would for CD/DVD etc.

    This will become a common thing in the near future but for now, most people are stuck with the limited capabilities of the player via 5.1 outputs.
     
  10. DonMaico

    DonMaico
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    Thanks Steve . Not sure what you meant by high level connection?
    My Tosh simply allows one to set the speakers to small and sub to on which I thought was all that was required for the low freqs to be sent to sub and mid/ hi to frt lf & rt/ctr/rear sats and that would be it.
    Just been reading thro my HK amp manual and it seems there are options to be had for DD and DTS:
    One can set the fronts to large ,sub to on and only certain dolby digital low freqs would come out of the sub. Or one can set the freq under which all bass info is sent to ther sub(frt speakers large-crossover choices 40Hz or 60Hz or frt speakers small-crossover choices 80z or 100Hz).
    My question is wouldnbt it be just as well to let the 5 sats take care of mid/high freqs and the sub the low end freqs ?

    Your last two paragraphs brought a wry smile to my face as it seems the manufacturers are again guaranteeing themselves built in obsolescence by delaying digital dvd a connection. Ive already had to change one amp and it would irk me having to do so again.
    The HK dvd a player is set to be releassed in the late summer so I shall be looking forward to some reviews. Having said that a universl player would seem the most sensible option.
     
  11. Stereo Steve

    Stereo Steve
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    A high level connection is one where the sub is connected to the speaker terminals. You set the speakers to large and the sub picks up the full range signal and plays everything up to where you set the xover on it or where it runs out. If doing this you should set the xover on the sub so it stops just below the point your main speakers roll off.

    For your set up it would be far better to set your speakers to small on the amp and have the xover fairly high, 100 may be good and then connect to the sub with a low level (phono) lead and set the sub xover to 90 ish. Remember you need to do this on your amp for CD/DD/DTS and also if playing DVD-A via a 5.1 bypass, on your player too as the bypass on most amps will send whatever comes out of the player straight to those speakers, so you need to process that in the player first. This is why people complain about the lack of bass management on DVD-A/SACD players as they want to apply the same setup as they do for other sources.

    I know it sounds confusing but a bit of time with the manual and reading on here will make it all become clear. Most manuals do not make it clear what the small/large settings do. I remember when I first got a receiver with this function I set my rears to small (as they were small) and the fronts to large (as they were quite big!).

    If you can find a good cheap one, the Pioneer 757 is a great player and has the iLink which should offer some future proofing. The 656 and 565 are good too, as is the Denon 2200/2900.
     
  12. DonMaico

    DonMaico
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    Thanks Steve
    due to get the sub either tomorrow or sat which is incredibly good service as i only ordered yesterday. So I'll let youi know how I get on with it. Ta!
    Think I'll leave the high level connection bit alone for now as I cant get my head quite round it as yet.
    The nstructions on my manual are not the easiest to follow but with perseverence one can get there eventually . i guess alot of it is trial and errorto see which option works the best.But I willstart as you suggested with all the sats set at small and the sub at 90Hz. Cant set the crossover on the player for dvd a output because it wont let me - can only set speakers small and sub on thats all, which is why I am looking to replace it.
    Not sure whether my HK would accept an Ilink - probably not. In fact I dont even know what that is.
    Mike
     
  13. DonMaico

    DonMaico
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    Just found out all I need to know about ilink for the moment. a connection which renders my current amp obsolete. Grrrr!
     
  14. DonMaico

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    still I could buy a 757 for future proofing tho.
     

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