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DVD-A/SACD Bass Management

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Matt F, Jan 17, 2003.

  1. Matt F

    Matt F
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    Are there many players out there that can do DVD-A and/or SACD bass management properly?

    The reason I ask is that I have just checked out the Marantz “play everything” DV8300 and it does not make good reading:

    http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=301

    No bass management on DVD-A at all.
    Limited bass management on SACD (and I’ve no idea whether this is done within the DSD domain – it’s a waste of time if there is a conversion to PCM)

    By limited, I mean that the front speakers can only be set to “Large” and that time delay settings (that it allows for DD/DTS) do not apply to SACD.

    It really is a poor show I’m afraid and this got me wondering whether there are any players that do it properly.

    The Denon DVD3800 does (so I assume the dearer A1 does) but are there any others?

    Bear-in-mind that a lot of cheaper DVD-V/SACD players that boast bass management either only do it for DD/DTS or do it in SACD by converting the DSD signal to PCM which destroys the whole reason for having SACD in the first place.

    Matt.
     
  2. Matt F

    Matt F
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    No one got any thoughts on this? It's very important you know.

    To make matters worse, I was browsing through this months HiFi World and they gave the DV8300 a glowing review and I saw no mention of it's lack bass management and time-delay functionality.

    To me, there's not a lot of point buying a player if you can't set all your speaker sizes and distances accordingly.

    Does anyone know what the Pioneer 757I and Philips 963SA's bass management is like?

    Matt.
     
  3. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    philips 963SA has bass managment for SACD stereo mode, separately from the DVD movie settings (and SACD multichannel)

    Centre/fronts/surrounds large/small (defined as handling below 120Hz for large)

    Subwoofer on/off

    You can adjust crossover frequency - 80, 100 or 120Hz
    Filter slope - 12, 18 or 24dB/octave

    delay times for centre and surround speakers separately.

    user manual in english available from the philips website, at this link

    pdf manual for 963sa
     
  4. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Not exactly a cheap option, but you could buy a Lexicon MC-12 processor. :) It can take a 5.1 analogue input and feed it through A/D and then D/A convertors which are of quite impressive high quality. (As noted elsewhere this is one of the things the MC-8 can't do).
     
  5. Matt F

    Matt F
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    Thanks for this Richard.

    Having read through the manual I have a nasty feeling that they provide this bass management by converting the DSD (SACD) signal into a PCM (CD type) signal which is not good i.e. by using it you are no longer getting the benefits of high resolution SACD.

    They don't say this explicitly but they do say (of the SACD Bass Management Bypass):

    "This helps to preserve the maximum sound quality of your SACD"

    To me that's pretty much admiting that the SACD bass management is not done within the DSD domain.

    Matt.
     
  6. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    or it could mean that the bass managment helps you to get the most out of your amp and speakers, therefore creating the best possible version of the original disc for your setup.

    I wouldn't read too much into that though, it sounds like manual PR fluff mostly.
     
  7. Matt F

    Matt F
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    No, because that they are saying that you "preserve the maximum sound quality of SACD" by NOT using the 963's bass management.

    Matt.
     
  8. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I have had a good search for info on this but have come up with little, someone must have a good link somewhere? It must be somewhwere

    MC12 is great, no one else does this to my knowledge and is why Garmtz uses his MC12. The best feature of MC12 IMHO.

    Digital links are like rocking horse ***** but is a good way forward but don't hold your breath for something (soon).

    Outlaw ICBM is a decent basic system

    but getting 'proper' accurate info on players is very difficult, sounds like something secrets of home theartre lot would / should do.

    SACD preserving best quality smacks of DSD to PCM to me!

    Come on someone must have some good links / experience here :)
     
  9. Matt F

    Matt F
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    Yep - agree with all of this - the info just isn't available and, because of this, people may assume that the bass management of their budget SACD players is fine when, in actual fact, as soon as they turn it on they destroy all the benefits of SACD!

    Matt.
     
  10. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    maybe its just saying that any adjustment is a compromise on the original signal, and turning on the 'bass managmement bypass' is effectively the same as a 'CD direct' mode on a receiver or DVD player?

    Doesn't sound too sinister. When SACD first came out people moaned because it didn't have bass management. Now some players do, and provide you with the choice of on or off. You can't have everything.

    Are there any reviews of the SACD side of things yet? I would hope they would discuss the relative merits of the bass managment side.
     
  11. JSW

    JSW
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    Dosn't the Pioneer 757AI offer better bass management??

    From what I can gather you can set individual speaker sizes and distance/delay times

    Delay times can only be set for DVD A though apparently and not SACD?

    For pretty decent reviews of players try areadvd.de with a translater.

    Some pics of the 757AI including with cover off here: http://www.dvdupgrades.ch/cgi-bin/shop/90054/DVDplayers/Pioneer/PioneerDV757AI.html
     
  12. Matt F

    Matt F
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    Originally posted by richard plumb
    maybe its just saying that any adjustment is a compromise on the original signal, and turning on the 'bass managmement bypass' is effectively the same as a 'CD direct' mode on a receiver or DVD player?

    I think that's the point Richard - the bass management is a compromise on the original signal if a conversion to PCM takes place.

    However, it doesn't have to be like this if it is done properly. Basically you have a load of SACD digital information on a disc, which is for each of the 5 channels and for the LFE channel (if the recording dictates this). Proper bass management would take the information for each channel and re-route the <80Hz frequencies to the LFE channel if the speaker is set to "small" and it would do this all within the SACD (DSD) domain. You need some serious processing power to do this because we are talking about high resolution multi channel audio - having said that Denon appear to be doing this on the DVD-A side with their DVD3800.

     

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