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DVD-A/SACD and sub-sat systems...

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Dazed, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. Dazed

    Dazed
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    Moderators please feel free wo move this thread - it could be here, speakers or DVD players

    Please forgive my ignorance to the best of my knowledge DVD-A via the multiple outputs completely by-passes all bass management/DSP in amps. This being the case how do you stop harmful frequencies reaching satellite speakers in sub-sat systems?:confused:
     
  2. EvilMudge

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    Directly answering your question, you can't, if a true analogue bypass is used.
    Some of the high end amps/processors will resample in multichannel input, bass manage it and then use their own DACs to output it again - which can result in a drop in quality.
    M&K also make a bass management module for multichannel music monitoring, but again there are potential losses for this method.
     
  3. magking

    magking
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    Some DVD-A and SACD players have internal bass-management.
    My Denon DVD3800 has this, but many players does'nt.
     
  4. nathan_silly

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    If you have large speakers all round (handle 80hz and lower), then it'll be ok?
     
  5. Ian J

    Ian J
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    The Pioneer 656A also has bass management facilities within it for just this reason.
     
  6. Matt F

    Matt F
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    Dazed - you have identified the achilles heal of DVD-A/SACD and it's not just the bass management issue, it is the time alignment adjustments (i.e. applying delays to those speakers closer to you so that all the sound reaches you at the same time.

    We take these things for granted with DD/DTS but, as you say, with DVD-A/SACD it is a different matter as you are reliant on the player itself to provide the bass management/time alignment - at least until a digital transfer method is agreed and the amps/processors have the necessary processing power to do these adjustments properly.

    And this is the problem with the vast majority of DVD-A/SACD players - they either don't do it properly or they don't do it at all. The Denon 3800 is an exception (as I would imagine is the A1) - they do bass management properly.

    When I say "don't do it properly", I am talking more about SACD and the budget players boasting bass management - they achieve bass management by converting the DSD (SACD) signal into a PCM signal which completely destroys the benfits of SACD in the first place!

    The problem here is a lack of information - manufacturers are not forward at coming out and saying they can't do bass management properly - they say stuff like "bypassing the bass management helps to preserve the maximum sound quality of your SACD" - you can take that as an admission that a conversion to PCM is taking place.

    I found out a lot about this when looking at Marantz's highly regarded "play everything" DV8300 - I assumed that at its price level it would do bass management/time alignment properly - wrong:

    - No bass management on DVD-A at all.
    - Limited bass management on SACD (and I’ve no idea whether this is done within the DSD domain – it’s a waste of time if there is a conversion to PCM)

    By limited, I mean that the front speakers can only be set to “Large” and that time delay settings (that it allows for DD/DTS) do not apply to SACD.

    So, in conclusion, it's a bl*ody minefield - few players do it properly and many think they've got it when what they've actually got is a poor substitute that degrades the sound quality.

    I's say either get a player like the Denon 3800 that does it properly or perhaps look at a passive bass management box such as the Outlaw ICBM but bear-in-mind that this won't give you time delays.

    Matt.
     
  7. Spligsey

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    Matt.


    It's all old hat to us Meridian owners:devil:

    Adzman
     
  8. Dazed

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    Thanks all - especially Matt for an excellent reply. I guess I'll have to wait for my next upgrade cycle when firewire links become standard to get the best out of multi-channel audio. Ho Hum.

    Is a combination of AX10i and 757i the answer currently or is this solution still hamstrung by the copy protection lobby? (not that I can afford it atm)
     
  9. EvilMudge

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    Bass management is very very difficult to perform on DSD without converting it to PCM first. Then again, I'm fairly convinced by now that DSD is only superior to lower resolution PCM signals. As long as the conversion from DSD to PCM is done at sufficiently high resolution there may be advantages to the conversion process from a signal:noise perspective.
    However the Pioneer combo uses the above method - but it reduces DSD to 88.2KHz PCM for processing. It's fully approved though so there are no limitations on the firewire link.
     

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