DV (16:9) -> Pioneer 5100 - Why can't I use HSC ?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Benfica, Oct 7, 2004.

  1. Benfica

    Benfica
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    I have a miniDV camcorder (Sony PC-330E).

    I usually do all my recordings in 4:3 mode. But I have done a complete miniDV tape in 16:9 mode (by the way, the PQ is also great). I copied it to Pioneer DVR-5100 recorder, using firewire, with no problems.

    I played it from the HDD and it was perfect and indeed it changed automatically the settings of my TV to Widescreen.

    When I went to add it to a new "copy list", I was unable to do it. The message was "Could not edit".

    The only way to add it to the "copy list" was changing the "Frame accurate" setting to YES. As you all know, generally this will not allow you to use HSC (High Speed Copy) when burning to DVD-R (it allows you if you record to DVD-RW in VR mode).

    But, shouldn't I be able to edit 16:9 content with "Frame accurate" set to NO and then use HSC to dub 16:9 material to DVD-R ?
    I know, at least I think I know, that the 16:9 flag will not be set in DVD-R Video mode, but it would be always OK if played in a 16:9 TV set, and not ok if played in a 4:3 TV set.

    Hope someone can help me understand this.

    PS: At the end I copied to DVD-R using Real Time Copy (in FINE mode). The PQ is still great, but it took, of course, 1 hour to finish. :mad:

    Thanks, in advance.

    Best regards.
     
  2. eddyad

    eddyad
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    420 works the same. What mode did you use to copy to HDD? It should do HS copy if you recorded to HDD in MN18 or better (i.e. SP). The rules are complex to say the least. I tried to set up a chart but gave up.
    Also I don't think you can record mixed format in HS at all. I believe HS copy relies on a bit-by-bit copy so the target format must deal with it OK.
    I think you'd be able to do it in VR mode on DVD-RW. HDD recordings are essentially VR mode.
     
  3. Benfica

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    I used FINE to copy to HDD, so there should be no restrictions.
    Also I didn't mixed diferent formats (either in OAR or recording modes). It was just a title with 1h02m (corresponding to a complete miniDV tape in 16:9 format) recorded in FINE through firewire conection.

    Thanks and best regards,
     
  4. eddyad

    eddyad
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    1. My reference to MN18 in an earlier post should have said MN19.

    2. On a Pioneer 420 I did an experiment and recorded some material in MN19 and was able to do High Speed copy to an RW disk in VR mode and also to an RW disk in Video mode. Both copies preserved a 'custom' chapter mark. This worked for Frame Accurate both On and Off. I tried with a -R disk in the machine and High Speed copy was available (I didn't finish it as I wanted to leave the disk blank).
    My view is that HS copy is prevented by format changes within the recording(s) in the copy list, or if the target mode is different from the source, or if Frame Accurate is Off in modes MN18 and below.
     
  5. Benfica

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    All true regarding #2 in your post.

    However, in my case that was a unique title, 16:9, FINE mode. No restrictions whatsoever, according to the manual.

    I've put this question to Pioneer. I'm waiting for an answer ....

    Thanks. Best regards.
     
  6. eddyad

    eddyad
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    Is this the solution?

    The 420 manual gives 1hr 01mins as the maximum for a DVD in fine mode.

    This means your source is too long at 1hr 02mins and requires resampling to fit the DVD. Hence the inability to do High Speed Copy. If you use Optimised you will get the best quality from the 1hr 02mins source.
    Alternatively, if you cut 2 mins from your HDD in some way the HS copy should work.

    Obviously you don't need to do the following as you now have a DVD, but if you still have the HDD version it may be useful to remove 2 or 3 minutes. Then with a DVD in the drive. check if HS Copy is available. Obviously you do not need to complete it.
     
  7. Benfica

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    Thanks, eddyad, but actually that is not the solution.

    I've done 14 miniDV tape convertions to DVD-R. All of them have 1h02m long, and actually I could use HSC on all of them and all those 62 mins did end up in a DVD-R in FINE mode using HSC. I've done all of those miniDV tapes in 4:3 format.

    The problem seems to be the 16:9 format, that in first place, doesn't allowed me to add that title to a copy list with "Frame Accurate" set to OFF. When I turned it on, I manage to add that title but than after I could not use HSC. At the end I did a real time copy in FINE mode (I had to cut about 2 mins to do it, just like you said).

    At the momment I think that my problem is a limitation of the Pio 5100 that is not stated in the machine instruction manual.

    Where is written in the manual that I'm not able to add a title to a "Copy List" with an aspect ratio of 16:9 with "Frame accurate" set to OFF ?

    So, I've sent an email to Pioneer support, regarding this issue. I'm Waiting for an answer ...

    Best regards, and thanks again ! You are the only one who is trying to help me on this !
     
  8. eddyad

    eddyad
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    All dvd recording times are approximate because, I think, of something to do with variations in sampling to hold the information. Is there anything about the tape in question that is different from the previous ones? For examples, a lot of high speed movement or colour changes. I don't really understand what makes the timings 'approximate', but I just wondered....

    Also have you changed DVD brands?
    I've found that with recordable 74 min audio CDs there can be variations of up to three minutes with different brands. One showed as 72 mins, another just over 75.
     
  9. Benfica

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    Well, my findings are that if you use HSC you always get more than the time specified in the manual:
    - you get 1h02 for FINE mode
    - you get 2h05 for SP mode.
    ...

    But if you do a real time copy, than you are limited to:
    - 1h00 for FINE mode
    - 2h00 for SP mode.

    But my main problem is that I was not able to "add" a title in 16:9 mode to a new "Copy List", unless I had "Frame Accurate" turned ON.

    After adding that title with "Frame Accurate" turned ON, I was not able to use HSC anymore, even when i deleted around 2 mins of video.

    And I have done this procedure for other 14 miniDV tapes (in 4:3 mode) with no problem whatsoever: "Add" that title with "Frame Accurate" OFF and then HSC to DVD-R (all of the 1h02m).

    I also didn't changed my DVD brand. I'm using Ridisc 4x.

    Honestly I'm thinking this is a limitation not expressed in the manual.

    Thanks. Best regards.
     
  10. eddyad

    eddyad
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    This suggests that there is something about the original that is preventing the HSC. Are you sure you don't have a few seconds of 4:3 format anywhere - including the beginning or end? This would mess up the HSC and the Frame Accurate. The fact that you have done this with 4:3 tapes does suggest a problem like this somewhere.
    Does you camera default to 4:3 when it turns on? If so, is it possible that the first thing on the tape each time you start to record could be a format change frame? You would have to experiment with a short single 16:9 recording. If the problem is still there, try deleting the start and end of the recording in case there are format changes present. I admit I'm grasping at ideas here. :confused:
     
  11. Benfica

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    I will do the tests that you sugest, although all the tape is recorded in 16:9 format, from the beginning to the end.

    I will let you know.

    Thanks. Best regards,
     
  12. eddyad

    eddyad
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    Hi - this wasn't making any sense and it's been bugging me. I wonder if the problem is anything to do with the fact that broadcast 16:9 programs use anamorphic 4:3 pics (I think) and your camcorder is full 16:9 resolution?
     
  13. Benfica

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    It's been bugging me also .... lol

    I've emailed pioneer with this issue, but still no answer from them.

    I have to get some time to do some tests ...

    When you use "DV record" in pio 5100 you can control the camcorder through it. When you start recording it wil automatically start playing on the camcorder. About 4 secs after that you see the first image on the TV, so I guess that is the time that the encoder starts to produce output from the DV source.
    I think that probably the recorder will only recognize that it is a 16:9 material after I don't know how many seconds of being recording it.
    And that's probably why it would not allow me to add it to a new copy list with FA set to OFF (probably it thinks that is actually a title with mixed aspect ratios ...).

    Another thing that I want to test is if I'm able to edit on HDD first (i think it will, or at least i hope I will be able), and then add all the titles to a new copy list (FA set to OFF), one at a time (I usually divide a title in each timecode break of DV tape) and then try to use HSC.

    Anyway, this is a strange and unespected problem.

    But, eh, I'm still happy with the recorder. But i really would like to record my own family movies in 16:9. You know ... the picture is also great and my TV is 16:9 ... excelent combination !

    If only I can get some time ...

    Best regards,
     
  14. Benfica

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    Ok, so I finally did it.

    I recorded a miniDV tape (in 16:9 AR) in my Sony camcorder. I dubbed it to my recorder's HDD using the firewire.

    Recorded at FINE (1hr/DVD) quality.

    Somethings to be noticed during this process.

    1) Editing & High Speed Copy

    Previous note: when you dub a miniDV tape through DV interface you get one title. There will be a chapter mark each time there is a time-code break in the miniDV tape (each time you stop & restart recording to the miniDV tape).

    Tried to do editing on HDD. I divide my initial title each time there was a chapter mark (I usually do this in the Copy List). After that process I was able to add my titles (9 in total) to a Copy List. Did and finished all my editings and I was indeed able to High Speed Copy to DVD-R !

    2) 16:9 AR

    My final DVD played fine (of course) in my 16:9 TV - I mean the people were normal (regarding tall and thin).

    I then changed my TV AR to 4:3. I changed my DVD recorder TV setting to 4:3 Letterbox. I played my DVD-R in my recorder. The menus are 4:3 - they fill the entire screen. When I selected any title to play it letter boxed them (it adds black bars at top and bottom). Once again people looked normal - right AR.

    I then changed my DVD recorder TV setting to 4:3 Pan & Scan. The menus are 4:3 - they fill the entire screen. When I selected any title to play it pan & scanned them (it crops the left and right side of the picture using all the vertical height of the picture). Once again people looked normal - right AR.

    I did the same settings (4:3 LB and 4:3 P&S) in my DVD Player (Onkyo), played my DVD-R and got exactly the same results that I got with my recorder acting as a player.

    So, in fact I was able to edit (although initialy on HDD) and my Pioneer DVD recorder sets correctly the 16:9 flag when copying (from a miniDV tape recorded in 16:9) to HDD and then High Speed copied to DVD-R.

    3) Equipment used

    HDD/DVD Recorder: Pioneer DVR-5100H
    Camcorder: Sony DCR-PC330
    DVD Player: Onkyo DV-535

    HTH
     

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