Dumb ass question regarding DVD VR and Video modes

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by nunew33, May 27, 2004.

  1. nunew33

    nunew33
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    im going to get the RDXS32 which does VR mode on RAM and HD and video on RW and R.

    I want to archive all my camcorder footage. I am assuming that if I record to HDD it will be in VR mode and whilst in that mode I have the best editing functionality. As soon as I record it to RW or R I lose that fleXibility. And hence should I archive raw footage to RW and R and then back to HDD for editing at later dates I will lose something? Is that the case or does it convert it back to VR mode?

    Assuming the best thing to do is keep it in VR mode I would assume then that archiving original footage for use in projects later would best be kept on RAM discs. But at a fiver a pop that aint cheap. SOooo would I be able to take ram across to PC and simply copy files on RAM to blank R and RW knowing that they are a VR archive and wouldnt be playable but that at a later date I could copy files back to a RAM and then back to the Tosh for editing.

    I know my logic is flawed as I have no understanding of VR vs video. can someone tell me if Im right or wrong.Cheers
     
  2. phelings

    phelings
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    You are best to transfer all your material to HDD,then edit and copy to dvd-r.If you want to keep the originals all intact,copy them that way to dvd-r,then when you want to do a new edit,you can transfer the -r back to HDD to reedit and copy back to -r again.Forget about RAM.Buy a Pioneer which offers VIDEO and VR on -RW then you can choose exactly how you want to do it
     
  3. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Thanks Phelings.

    So is it loss less to convert from VR to video and vice versa?

    The only potential change being the accuracy of chapter points?

    BTW
    Pioneer, I think, doesnt offer me the other things i want from a dvd recorder!
     
  4. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    nunew33 - the difference between VR mode and Video mode is that the former (VR) records everything into a 'container file' the structure of which allows non-linear functions such as Timeslip and editting but which can't be understood by most DVD players. Video mode however is a series of VOB files (etc) which are the same format as commercial discs you buy in the shops and thus can be understood by most DVD players. All HDD recording is done in VR format, DVD-RAM always records in VR format, DVD-R always records in Video format and DVD-RW can be record to in Video or VR formats (but only Video format on Toshiba machines).

    As Phelings points out for the most part you will want to copy your material to the HDD where you can edit. You will then dub to DVD-R/-RW in Video mode for your compatible copy or one to use to import into your PC authoring suite. You could use DVD-RW VR Mode or DVD-RAM to dub uneditted footage to disc you an 'original' you can edit later.

    Pioneer's current DVD recorder with a HDD isn't a particularly good option as it lacks RGB input which puts it at a notable disadvantage from the Panasonic and Philips models as well as the Toshiba model you are considering. This will be corrected in the model released later this year.
     
  5. nunew33

    nunew33
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    ok,
    the thing that worried me is that the manual for the tosh states that when copying from hdd to dvd-r/rw the chapter points may change and also states that vr mode gives frame accuracy, video mode has accuracy of about .5 secs
     
  6. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    The thing to not about MPEG2 is that, by it's nature, it does not allow frame accurate editting. This can be worked around by numerous tricks such as Seemless Playback or by placing markers etc (depending upon your machine). It shouldn't be a concern whatever machine you get.
     
  7. nunew33

    nunew33
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    So if i understand you correctly. Both modes use Mpeg, its the file structure that differs. So there is no change in Pic quality merely the mechanisms by which they reference points in the file.
     
  8. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Yes - they both use MPEG2 compression - changing between them is a lossless process unless you re-encode. Obviously the DVD-Video file structure came first with the Video Recording (VR) mode being designed subsequently to avoid the limitations of the former.
     
  9. nunew33

    nunew33
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    So if VR is better why arent we seeing more players that play both VR and video?
     
  10. phelings

    phelings
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    Apart from RGB input,the Pioneer offers the same and more as recorders from Panasonic and Toshiba.Disc backup allows a full digital copy of a dvd in 25 minutes like a PC rewriter.I know of no other make that offers that.-RW(VR) is as functional as RAM,while -RW(VIDEO) or -R will play on other players.It has high speed copying and enables it in a more user friendly fashion than the Panasonic.
    What functions do you need that you think the Pioneer lacks
     
  11. nunew33

    nunew33
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    My reqs are componant/progressive for projector
    RGB for quality
    under £500 because im tight
    RAM and -RW/R because thats what my PC has
    HD because i want to stop looking for something to record on
    DV in for camcorder

    Im picking tosh not just for functions but price as well
     
  12. Normandy16

    Normandy16
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    Nunew33....
    Forgive if I've the wrong end of the stick here, but if you want to archive camcorder footage for future editing on your PC, [I assume you mean editing as opposed to Authoring?] then surely it's best to avoid MPEG2 altogether and keep your footage in DV format [if its a digi cam] or MJPEG [if its an analogue capture].
    DV and MJPEG are similar intraframe compression systems i.e. each frame is individually compressed, which avoids all that nasty averaging of several frames nonsense [and gives accurate editing].
    So I reckon the best procedure would be to archive the captured files using your PC burner, thus keeping the original format?
    Or have I missed the point?

    cheers
     
  13. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Normandy. I have a PC thats like a 7 stone weakling with big gonads.

    It may have 2 DVD burners on it but its only an athlon 1100. Ive tried using it for video capture but no matter how much I tweak it to not load drivers etc, it wont give me loossless capture. Although I havent gone as far as buying a dedicated HD, purely for capture. With the stuff i did capture I found it a real ball ache to edit using ulead MSP 6.5 pr Premiere 6 something. Both took ages to render and generally failed.

    I could spend hundreds getting new chip, new HD, more memory, new software, better graphics card etc, but it still may not guarantee that I get a machine that can quickly render a home movie.

    All I want to do is make family discs to give to others and to reduce the risk of losing quality over time from the tapes. An under the TV burner seemed the easiest (in terms of time) way to do this, as well as moving away from clunky VHS.

    I currently have a Sony TR3000 camcorder but will upgrade soon hence analogue now, but DV soon
     
  14. Normandy16

    Normandy16
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    Hmm. Imagination going into overdrive - got a picture?..

    Seriously, I now see it from your perspective.
    I used to edit using a panny NVHS1000 and my panny camera using the 1000's cute edit cable. Then I discovered PC editing and never looked back. Sure it can be a pain in the proverbial, but the results are well worth it. I recommend you try it - one day.
    Initially this was on an AMD 400 MHz proc which took ages to render the final result but was OK whilst preparing. Currently on 2.6 GHz and it does make life a lot more civilised. I use a Matrox Mystique with the Rainbow Runner daughter card for capture [which is now very old hat] it compresses MJPEG at about 4:1, at full res, 25 frames. Looks brilliant - until you dub it back to S-VHS of course - Hence I'm also waiting for the Tosh 32.

    Let us know when you get yours and how you get on with it.

    Cheers
     
  15. nunew33

    nunew33
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    well we are now into june so next couple of weeks I hope.
     
  16. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    All current Pioneer DVD Players support VR mode (look for the RW symbol) and so do most of Sony's, as well as some other makes scattered about.

    VR mode support isn't on all DVD Players as a) It isn't a requirement to get a DVD Logo and DVD Forum approval b) Costs more money in both testing, development of firmware, licensing, and also requires a memory buffer in the player, although this can also be used for smoothing out a layer change as a bonus. c) VR mode is a real-time recording format and has no menus or "extras" in the way DVD Video discs have, so it isn't a replacement for DVD Video, meaning no push to have it on all models.

    Regards

    Philip
     

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