Question Dual subs - brute force vs precision (Klipsch vs XTZ)?

phAge

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I'm in the proces of upgrading the subwoofer in my home theater, and have decided on a dual-sub configuration.

The room is medium sized (6,5 x 4,8 metres (21x16 ft) with a ceiling height of 2,1 metres (6,8 ft.)) with concrete walls all round, and carpet/dampening on the floor. Acoustics are OK - not brilliant but not terrible either, and I only use it for movies.

It looks like this (everything to scale):



I'm rather torn between 2 x XTZ 10.17 (SUB 10.17) or 2 x Klipsch SW115 (Speakers, Home Audio, & Headphones | Klipsch) - with the Euro the way it is, the cost is pretty close (the Klipsch being maybe EUR 150-ish dearer).

As I read the reviews, the 15" Klipsch goes quite a bit deeper, while the 10" XTZ is more precise and has more/better tuning options.

Most reviewers praise the Klipsch for its power, but note that it is harder to integrate - which could be a problem, given that the subs *have* to be located in the front corners of the room. OTOH, my new subs won't be upgraded for a long time, so I'd hate to be left wanting in power/depth after upgrading. I like my LFE as much as the next guy (OK, a bit more), but I'm not a complete bass-maniac. :)

So - tons of somewhat hard to control power, or more modest - but precise - bass. Thoughts?
 
Simply one man's opinion, but in typical sized non-dedicated rooms, I think 15" and 18" Subs are too big. Especially with Dual Subs, which is actually a good idea, I think 10" and 12" are a better choice. Though, again my opinion, I think Dual 12" in a common size room, could be a bit of over kill. Though it depends on the Subs.

Just to make things easier, here is the English version of the XTZ Sub webpages -

XTZ Sub 10.17 Active (10", 20hz@-3db) = €545 -


XTZ SUB 10.17 Active-Subwoofer - XTZ Sound in Balance

XTZ Sub 12.17 Active (12", 19hz@-3db) = €645 -


XTZ SUB 12.17 Active-Subwoofer - XTZ Sound in Balance

Popular High-Value Subs in the UK and to some extent the EU, are BK Electronics -

BK Electronics - Subwoofer

Simply find one that fits your budget. The New BK 12" P12-300B (20hz@-3db) are very modestly priced at £380 each.

Platinum P12300-SB

Platinum P12300-SB-FF

These can be shipped to the EU if you are not in the UK.

As to KLIPSCH, I'm sure they are fine, but typically the best value is to buy Subs from someone specializing in Subs. Can you give us the rough cost of the Klipsch Sub you are looking at?

If by chance you want Crazy Killer Demolition Subs, XTZ has that covered too -

Platinum P12300-SB-FF

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Cheers for the reply (and proper links to the XTZ's!).

The Klipsch 15" would set me back about EUR 600 each and would, as stated above, only fit in the corners, while the XTZ 10.17's are small enough that they could be placed below the projector screen, on either side of the center speaker (which, as I understand it, is a good place to put them).

I have to admit that I'd pretty much decided on the 10.17's before discovering the Klipsch SW115, and those 15" probably *are* too massive for my room size. Still, 15" is 15"... :)

I'm in Denmark, BTW.
 
Have you not thought about the xtz cinema 1x12 sub? Maybe buy one and save for the other. As its designed for the cinema range it may be better for movies?
 
Yeah - I considered them, but they're just a bit too steep if I want two and, like with the Klipsch, I fear they might be too powerful for my room. They do look nice, though.
 
Cant have too much power. More power would mean less driver movement, less stress on amp meaning a cleaner sound?

Buy one, save, buy second. Upgrade done! You may even not need 2?
 
What do you base your opinion on?
Um... my opinion. This is not a rock hard science. There are people who have 10 Subs scattered around a room. Though that would be in a large multi-tiered dedicated Home Cinema room.

The room itself is -

"The room is medium sized (6,5 x 4,8 metres (21x16 ft) with a ceiling height of 2,1 metres (6,8 ft.)..."

I'm not sure about the ceiling height, 6.8 ft doesn't seem quite right. 2.1 meters is actually closer to 6.9 feet but that is still low. Of course, we have no sense of the room acoustics. Certainly with that low ceiling he is not likely to have tiered seating.

So based on the room being 21ft x 16ft with lower than average ceilings, I think 15" and 18" are too big. And yes, that is tempered by an element of personal preference. I would rather have TWO 10" than ONE 15".

Today, it is common opinion, that two smaller Subs are better than one larger Sub. In that two Subs give better more uniform coverage in a given room.

Though as others have suggested, if he wants two large Subs, he is better off buying one good Sub and saving for the second Sub to be added at a later date. There is a limit to how low you can go on the cost of a Sub and still get quality performance.

It seems, though not specifically stated, that he has a bit over €1000 to spend on the Subs. Either TWO XTZ 10" 10.17 at about €545 each or TWO XTZ 12" 12.17 at €645 each would hit that pretty closely.

The XTZ 1x12 suggested by someone else is €845 each, which is pushing the budget pretty considerably.

The pair of the suggested Klipsch Subs would run about €1200.

So, it is not just about fitting the Sub to the room, it is about working out the Sub Size and Quantity relative to the stated design goals, budget, and room size. I gave my opinion on the matter, feel free to give a counter opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Um... my opinion.

Okaaaay....so your opinion is not based on experience...important distinction to make.

Having owned small and large subs in "normal" living rooms, I don't think that 15" subs are too big, far from it.
 
Okaaaay....so your opinion is not based on experience...important distinction to make.

Having owned small and large subs in "normal" living rooms, I don't think that 15" subs are too big, far from it.

That's why they are called .... opinions.

Also, this isn't a 'Normal' living room. It is specifically -

"...medium sized... (21x16 ft) with a ceiling height of ... (6,8 ft.)..."

I've seen people with Musician PA systems in small bedroom. You can do anything you want, but the underlying question is - what works best? And more so, what works best for an individual person with individual tastes in a specific room under specific circumstance and with a specific budget?

So, can we conclude that you dispute my statements, even though they are somewhat consistent with the OP's choices or feelings, and are instead recommending a Single 15" Subwoofer? If so, specifically which Subwoofer?

Given that you a have not actually given any advise or recommendations to the Original Poster, we can only guess at what they would be.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Personally I too would go for something bigger. I have a similarly sized room (6.8 X 4.5) and use two co-located sealed 18s, one previously just wasn't enough for me. It's not about output, a single 15 should be sufficient there, it's about headroom, being able to cover the lowest frequencies at a realistic level without ever sounding stressed. On your budget the only way you could achieve that is DIY which might not be an attractive proposition.

It also depends to some extent on what you watch. If you only ever watch romantic comedies then even a single 10"should be enough. If, on the other hand, you watch much sci-fi or fantasy then I doubt you could ever have too much!

Although not the SW115 Data-bass tested the Klipsch SW311 (also a 10" ported sub) and found it overpriced Data-Bass and were distinctly underwhelmed. Out of those two my choice would be the XTZ. All IMHO I hasten to add! :)
 
That's why they are called .... opinions.


Everything posted on internet forums is largely opinion. You made a sweeping statement and I simply questioned what you based that opinion on. Your answer was...my opinion :suicide:

Moving on....
 
A few points for the OP:

1. Don't assume that putting a pair of subs each side of the centre speaker is the best place for them sound wise. You may find that placing them in the centre of the front and back walls gives a more even room response, or mid side walls, or opposite diagonal corners (my last setup was this configuration). Ideally you would measure the different options, or since the room is a simple rectangle it could be modelled in REW room sim to give a good idea of what works best. Your sofa looks to be mid way in the room, so that may cause issues with room nulls.

2. What levels do you intend listening at? I've heard a single XTZ 12.17 in a decent sized room, but the listening levels were relatively modest. It sounded clean and tight in this set up, but it wasn't cranked up that high. IMHO even a pair of 10" versions would be under powered for decent listening levels in a room your size. As Stephen says in post #4 consider an XTZ 1x12 and save for a second if you want to improve room and seat to seat response later.

3. Reading on AVS forum Klipsch subs seem to be a bit of a bargain basement sort of sub. You get a big box for your money, but I get the feeling that quality is lacking. Having said that I've never heard them myself.

FWIW I run a pair of 15" subs in a 6.5 x 3.8 x 2.4 (high) metre living room set up and will be adding further pair of smaller dual 8" subs at the rear to fill in a null. There will be a sub in each corner of the room, with the smaller ones much closer to the MLP than the pair of 15s. This allows plenty of headroom, so that the bass produced is very low in distortion. Having multiple subs also helps give a more even seat to seat response and helps fill in nulls (which no amount of eq can resolve).

As per my signature, you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, but as a general rule I take advice from people who own and use the equipment I'm considering rather than someone who doesn't. ;) So far Stephen, Smurfin, Ringnut and myself are the only people responding who actually own and use subwoofers in our medium sized rooms.
 
My room is 6x5x 2,4 m .
I have owned dual subwoofers in the past.
This summer I replaced my BK Monolith + subwoofers for dual
Klipsch RP-115.

The best set up in subwoofers so far.
 
.... Out of those two my choice would be the XTZ. All IMHO I hasten to add! :)

There is an element of personal taste or preference here. But given the OP's implied budget, while the XTZ 1x12 is about €850 driving the budget up a bit too high, the XTZ 12.17 is only €650, a pair of which are not out of reach on the suggested budge. The XTZ 10.17 are about €100 less at €550.

For myself, 2x10" Subs would get the job done. However, if the OP decides he wants more, 2x12" Subs are still within reach.

So, the Original Poster does have some workable options.

In the UK, Epic Home Cinema is the authorized XTZ Dealer. I'm sure if you are somewhere else in the EU, you can find a dealer to demo the speakers -

Epic Home Cinema - Home Cinema Retail and Installations

Epic Home Cinema Products

Steve/bluewizard
 
A pair of 10's are surprisingly good. A few of you heard the 12" on day one of it being taken out of the box. Following a warm up both the 10 and 12 are very effective for both movies and music. Whether a pair are required is room/preference/wife and budget dependant.

It may be worth touching bass (pun intended) with my colleagues in Sweden who'd be pleased to assist you. You could always buy and try. The 12.17 is the happy medium. Try a single first. If you need a second, get in touch and the team will help. If you were UK based I'd be happy to demo the options.

It may be that my colleagues can refer you to a customer local to you who could accommodate a demo.

Jag
 
Heh - not three hours ago, I pulled the trigger on two 12.17's.

Got a very reasonable price (one was a barely-used demo) so was only about 100 quid dearer than the 10.17's.

Very much looking forward to getting the boxes home - hopefully they'll make a good compromise between power and precision.
 
Heh - not three hours ago, I pulled the trigger on two 12.17's.

Got a very reasonable price (one was a barely-used demo) so was only about 100 quid dearer than the 10.17's.

Very much looking forward to getting the boxes home - hopefully they'll make a good compromise between power and precision.

Excellent. Do share your views in due course.
 
Heh - not three hours ago, I pulled the trigger on two 12.17's.

Got a very reasonable price (one was a barely-used demo) so was only about 100 quid dearer than the 10.17's.

Very much looking forward to getting the boxes home - hopefully they'll make a good compromise between power and precision.

It would be good to hear whether or not you feel that two 12" subs is 'too much' for your room or not (I'd guess not, but better to hear it from someone who has tried it ;) ).
 
It would be good to hear whether or not you feel that two 12" subs is 'too much' for your room or not (I'd guess not, but better to hear it from someone who has tried it ;) ).
I'l be sure to report back - not terribly worried about too much power either... ;)

Also just downloaded the REW Room Sim, to get an idea of where to place the things when they arrive - the less I have to move them, the better!
 
I've found the REW room sim pretty accurate for my room (pictures in my build thread in my signature), so I've pretty much put everything where the sim shows the best response for my new layout. I haven't measured as yet, but I'm optimistic that it will be very close to the sim...it actually sounds pretty good and it's currently a very bare room, so will only improve further with treatment.
 
Looks like the boxes from Sweden will be arriving on Monday - yay!

I've tried setting up the subs in REW Room Sim, and (with my placement options) it looks like the corners provide the best response.

I've tried with one sub inverted and both non-inverted (?) - which looks better to you (and are my inputs otherwise correct?):

As-is:

Subs.JPG


Inverted:

Subs - inverted.JPG


Also, any way to guess the surface absorptions of the room, without measuring?

EDIT:

And here I (think) I've added my front speakers (XTZ 99.36 MK1):

Subs + fronts.JPG
 
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I wouldn't suggest inverting one of the subs if they are both located a similar distance in front of you. Could you post up a sim showing the front speakers and both subs with them all in phase?

Your room seems to suffer a similar issue to mine, in that I get a null around 60Hz as per my picture:

Front subs only.jpg


Then I add the extra pair of (inwall) subs at the back, which will be rolled off below about 35Hz to protect them:

Four subs only.jpg


Try playing with putting one sub at the rear or in other areas of the room to see how the dip responds.

The next level is to select the other positions for the graph (left, right, front, behind, above & below). If you can select those other positions and only cause a small difference then you will be doing very well as this means seat to seat response is more even (and therefore easier to give everyone a good eq'd result). However, this is why I'm going to be running 4 subs as this was the only configuration that gave me a minimal change seat to seat. If you only have one seat/position to worry about then you can be a bit more flexible with sub positions.
 
Like this?
Subs - mid way.JPG


Unfortunately, this arrangement isn't possible for me (there is a table and some chairs at the back of the room, as it doubles as a boardgame-room).

Why wouldn't you invert one of the subs? Seems like it gives a smoother response?

Also, any idea why my room mode at 27hz doesn't give a db peak/boost when one sub is inverted?

EDIT: This, however, might be doable:

Subs - opposite corners.JPG
 
I meant not to invert the subs in your earlier post (the last picture with both subs at the front and your XTZ speakers). If the sub is behind you then it might work better with it inverted, though try moving the MLP slightly using the buttons I mentioned above.

I found that invert my rear subs looked good, however even a slight movement gave a much bigger change in the response, so in my case inverting the rears makes seat to seat response much worse.

However, it is a sim and it's better to actually measure and make small adjustments to the sub delays. If you look at my 4 sub sim, then notice I've added an extra 1mS delay to them above what the sim suggests which further improves the result. However, I know that in practice I'll have to get the REW mic out and do numerous sweeps and try different combinations.

If you have two subs non equidistant, then you have the delay between the two subs as one factor, plus the delay of the pair of subs relative to the speakers as another factor. If you search up 'sub delay tweak' then you should get some information on that (I used this tweak when I had an AVR with Audyssey as it never really optimises the sub/satellite blend).

This is what I mean about moving around the MLP (ie so you don't have to sit with your head in a vice :) ):

Moving around the MLP in phase.jpg


This is much harder to achieve with two subs, but just to give you some idea.

This is the same sim, but just using two diagonally opposite subs (my previous arrangement).Note how much variation there is, though sat in the MLP the response is exactly the same as for four subs:

Moving around the MLP in phase two subs.jpg


I don't worry about the above and below responses as it's unlikely I'll listen critically stood up or sat on the floor, but it's quite possible I might move left, right or even forwards (not so likely backwards but included it for reference or incase I wanted to move the seat back further).
 

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