Dual sub setup

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Current setup is tonewinnrt at300 and svs subwoofer. RCA pre out from at300 into antimode then into subwoofer.

Antimode Eq ran then tonewinner auto setup distance and manual level setup. Tonewinner eq disabled.

I should be getting a second sub so I have few options..both subs will be either side of the center speaker and equal distant to me.

When I get the second sub I have few connection options

1) use the in/out of the first sub calibrate each to 75db then run antimode eq (old school layout with my older single lfe AV pre)

2) leave existing sub with antimode the xlr-xlr to new

3) ditch antimode allow tonewinner to do both (in my experience eq on this unit isn't great.
 

Conrad

Moderator
Does the antimode you have support multiple subs, as in, can it time align and adjust levels on each output independently?

Symmetrical positioning might help but you'd need to measure the subs in each position to really know whether you're getting the same response. I assume your room isn't perfectly symmetrical (doors, windows, furniture) so you might not get the same response from both.

I would do:

4) sell the antimode, get a minidsp 2x4HD and an umik1.

If you get the umik1 first you can measure your current sub in both positions and see whether the responses complement each other, easy enough to do in REW. If they don't, then you can look at other options, other placements etc. At least then you haven't bought a sub that doesn't give you anything in room.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Does the antimode you have support multiple subs, as in, can it time align and adjust levels on each output independently?

Symmetrical positioning might help but you'd need to measure the subs in each position to really know whether you're getting the same response. I assume your room isn't perfectly symmetrical (doors, windows, furniture) so you might not get the same response from both.

I would do:

4) sell the antimode, get a minidsp 2x4HD and an umik1.

If you get the umik1 first you can measure your current sub in both positions and see whether the responses complement each other, easy enough to do in REW. If they don't, then you can look at other options, other placements etc. At least then you haven't bought a sub that doesn't give you anything in room.

I could connect the second sub to the first, reduce volume on the first, then do distance check, then increase first sub volume, decrease second sub volume and see what the difference is. Move one or the second to get both same distance on the TW. Then do full calibration of each.

The antimode has one output. Antimode will see two subs as one (combined) Then EQ summed output.
 

Conrad

Moderator
When you say move the subs, do you mean physically move them?

You can do the approach you suggest but I think you’ll have limited success.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
yeah. layout of my subs would be like this top image


subs either side of the TV, and the L/R speakers outside of the subs.

oh I think my sub has ability to run delay on the outputs (SVS SB13 ultra) the older plate amp version not the bluetooth one
 

Conrad

Moderator
yeah. layout of my subs would be like this top image


subs either side of the TV, and the L/R speakers outside of the subs.

oh I think my sub has ability to run delay on the outputs (SVS SB13 ultra) the older plate amp version not the bluetooth one
That's ok with the layout, but that completely depends on where that layout is in the room, where you are in the room, and what the room looks like. Just because it looks symmetrical to you doesn't mean that's how the subs see it.

If you can affect the delay of the subs directly then that'll help. You'll need to measure, change the phase control by a known amount (90 or 180 degrees), then measure again and cross check the change of phase with the measured distance. Divide one by the other and you'll get a "meters per degree of phase number". The difference in meters between the subs divided by your meters-per-degree number will tell you what phase adjustment you need.

I would still recommend an UMIK for multiple sub integration.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Wouldn't getting them time aligned from the tonewinner, with both coming back say 3.0 meters exactly be correct?

1)
Remove antmode
Connect sub 1 to tonewinner sub 1 output RCA
Connect sub 2 to tonewinner sub 2 output RCA
Run sub calibration x 2, if distance is not the same, physically move one or both subs get the same meters ie 3.2 meters

2)
Connect antimode, RCA from tonewinner into antimode. Antimode out into sub 1 then from sub 2.
Run calibration with sub 1 on, sub 2 off. Write down distance. Reduce volume on sub 1, switch sub 2 on. Check distance is the same (that verfies if the sub output delays in 1) above, and if so by how much) Then move sub one and/or sub two until I get the two matched in distanced on tonewinner.
Get each sub to output 75dB
Then run Antimode EQ
Then adjust level on tonewinner to taste.
 

Conrad

Moderator
Wouldn't getting them time aligned from the tonewinner, with both coming back say 3.0 meters exactly be correct?
It might, but it might not. Given the lack of a perfectly symmetical space you don't know what the phase response will be from each at the listening position. If it's in phase then great, although all you've done then is boosted your output. The goal of dual subs is to flatten the response without EQ, or improve the response in a way that EQ can't do (filling in nulls). You can only do that with phase alignment.

1)
Remove antmode
Connect sub 1 to tonewinner sub 1 output RCA
Connect sub 2 to tonewinner sub 2 output RCA
Run sub calibration x 2, if distance is not the same, physically move one or both subs get the same meters ie 3.2 meters

What frequency is the tonewinner measuring it's distance with? If its 80Hz then 1/4 wavelength is 3.5m, if its 50Hz then 1/4 wavelength is around 6m. I know your room is big but I doubt it's that big.

You can't use impulse responses like you do with mains because the wavelength for subwoofer frequencies are so long.

Without being able to visualise the phase interactions you can't know what the combined response will be.

Also, moving a sub and changing the phase of a sub aren't the same thing. Yes, moving the sub will change the phase at the listening position, but it will also change the response. Changing the phase without moving the sub will keep the response the same.

2)
Connect antimode, RCA from tonewinner into antimode. Antimode out into sub 1 then from sub 2.
Run calibration with sub 1 on, sub 2 off. Write down distance. Reduce volume on sub 1, switch sub 2 on. Check distance is the same (that verfies if the sub output delays in 1) above, and if so by how much) Then move sub one and/or sub two until I get the two matched in distanced on tonewinner.
Get each sub to output 75dB
Then run Antimode EQ
Then adjust level on tonewinner to taste.

Try it, but I think you'll need to be lucky to get a good outcome. It's always worth screenshotting each sub response in the tonewinner, at least then you'll be able to see the response of each sub before EQ. If they both have a dip at the same frequency then phase won't fix that, but moving the sub could (assuming you can move it to somewhere that doesn't have a dip at that same frequency).

Personally I don't understand why you wouldn't spend the £80 on a mic to make sure you're getting the best out of the subs.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
For someone who has an obsession with measurements, I'm really puzzled why you wouldn't invest in a UMIK to measure your own setup and gear properly.

Shoving your subwoofer around the room and guessing how they're performing is not something ASR would recommend! Easier to measure them via REW with a UMIK and then time aligning them to predict their response with the REW sim tools seems far more smarter than what you're proposing.

I'd also recommend ditching the anti-mode and getting a minidsp2x4HD because thats where nearly every HT enthusiast is now calibrating their subs from. The platform is well supported, bass EQ, easy time align functions and tonnes of tutorials on youtube. Also some very helpful forum members like Conrad who know it inside out.

If you buy a UMIK and MiniDSP alongside you're subwoofer, you'll probably be up and running and not having to tinker much within a day.


Basically the same as what Conrad said in an earlier post. A telephone conversation with Conrad with the right equipment and I was up and going with ease. Then a little bit of homework and I've been able to dial in my own 4 driver hoverBOSS myself and fine-tune things. DIRAC helped too with doing some magical jedi stricks for some output bump around 10hz not that it was needed with the HB.



Trade it in and upgrade whilst you have a buyer!
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member

Conrad

Moderator

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I think your only next option is Four of these:


And you need to upgrade the amps to 11 of these:


But you need to watch the voltage on your pre-amp :D

I'm already octo biamping my Bose jewel with boulder 3050 I twist all the cables together on the monoblocs into one speaker terminals.
 

Conrad

Moderator
Back to the double gem though, what are you trying to achieve? I don't think it matches the capability of the SVS you have now.

Invest in an Umik, then sell the SVS and get dual monolith 12s - that would be my upgrade plan for you.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
True it doesn't match output. I was supposed to be getting second sb ultra 13 but doesn't look it's going to happen. Have my sb12+ with the sb13+ did improve the system though

Dual monoprice monolith 12 will be physically too big
 

Conrad

Moderator
What are your size limits?
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Sb4000 size max if under the TV, so a sub either sub of the TV .

Or if next to racking double gem will be max (one side wall at 3 o clock position from listening position)
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
No height limit? 2x PC2000 is best deal atm if thinking price/performance, 1200£ duals. Almost same price as one new PB2000 Pro (1169£). These are new with full warranty, no marks what members report. You need over 2x SB13U to match 1x PC2000 at 20-25hz and that is with almost 10% lower distortion too.

Mono 12, Chris has only one for low price.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I've had ported svs subs before I think they fall behind for music
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Double Gem for music system, not for HT. It won´t have the juice below 30hz you want.

Put wanted add for SB13U or buy SB3000. It will be close enough match as i have said few times.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Don't just add two random subwoofers to your setup. Ideally you want to match them to your current sub or sell your current sub and buy fresh.

Makes EQ/calibratin so much easier.

I'd recommend selling your current sub and just buying 2x Mono 12s/15s on sale. The reason is because your room dimension wise is big in UK terms. You'll massively benefit from the output available and the Monoprice line have by far the best output per £ new in the UK and will definitely fulfill any music requirements you have.

The native with them is they're massive.

If the Mono's are too big, maybe go for a triple or quadruple Arendal 1Vs, either 1961 or 1723S.



Probably most vital to alll of this is whats your budget?
 

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