Dual Layered DVD-Rs

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Rasczak, Oct 3, 2003.

  1. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Given the recent announcement that Sony had developed a dual layered DVD+R, but was not bringing it to market due to costs, it is good to see the same may not be true for DVD-R:

    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=4206

    Not much info there yet but a step in the right direction to counter the woefully inadequate 4.7GB of current disks. Whether or not it will become viable financially given BluRay entry into the market remains to be seen.
     
  2. sub

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    Philips, Mitsubish and Verbatim has been quitely working on dual layer technology for a couple of years. They will be demo'ing a dual layer DVD+R product at an electronics show in Japan next week, with products available in 2004.


    http://www.dvdrw.com/press/duallayer.htm
     
  3. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Everyone's beeen working on dual layer technology - the key thing is getting it to work at a competitive price and ready for mass production. Sony, as the worlds leading PC DVD burner producer cannot currently make a competitive drive (but has already showcased the technology):
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=4127

    Philips on the other hand is a relatively small producer. Thus until the technology is embraced by one of the mass + optical producers (either HP or Sony) it won't become mainstream.

    Pioneer on the other hand is a major optical producer (holding upto 25% of the market):
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=4131
    ...and have one of the world's leading R&D departments (as recently showcased by the DBI Chipset development).
     
  4. sub

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    Going by your argument, you'd wonder how DVD+R/RW ever eventuated. Philips and partners (ricoh etc) will have no problems producing this technology, in the same way they had no problems bringing the original DVD+R/RW technology to market.

    I'm willing to bet that we'll see a dual layered DVD+R drive before DVD-R.

    Your argument sounds like wishful thinking on your part.
     
  5. Rasczak

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    It occurred because of extensive R&D by Philips and strong backing by production of optical drives by HP and Sony. The DVD Allaince is a very effective cross section of the production process: designers (Philips), producers (HP), dye/disk makers (Verbatim), PC builders (Dell) and good market channels (Philips). That made it successful. Now if one of the major links in the chain (Sony) says it's not currently viable I don't see why you dispute them.

    Sony has developed a dual layer DVD+R blank but it will likely never reach production stage because the drives needed to burn it will be too expensive:
    http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...tp://www.pcwelt.de/news/hardware/34231/5.html

    The site is in German (although I posted the link through Babelfish so you should be able to read it). The essential part is:
    Wishful thinking - which part? Do you dispute Sony's position in the market? Do you dispute they say it's not currently viable? Do you dispute Pioneer's position in the market? Do you dispute that Philips is NOT a major optical producer? Because I think you'll find these are all correct. Don't get me wrong ANY dual layered DVDR media is a step in the right direction but it will be a major producer who brings it in - and thus we must look to Hitachi, HP, LG, Pioneer or Sony to do this.
     
  6. sub

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    Philips, as inventer of the CD-Rom, is the creator of optical drives.

    Remember, Sony only started manufacturing DVD+R/RW equipment about 8 months ago with the DRU500, before then they were only a minor player in the DVD writer arena. Up until then, they were selling rebadged Ricoh drives.

    Sony being part of the dvd+rw alliance would most likely have helped sell drives, but it certainly was a key player in the development of the technology. The technology was developed in the labs at the Philips research centre in the netherlands.

    I'm also pretty sure that if Philips or Pioneer or anyone else start producing dual layer drives, Sony will also come to the party.
     
  7. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Yes - they do the Research & Design much of which has ended up in CD and DVDs. But they don't produce them in the same kind of quantities as the major producers of HP, LG, Hitachi, Pioneer and Sony. Simple as that.

    I'm not disputing anything you say there. Sub - I'm not looking for an argument on the history of DVD+RW - we clearly AGREE on it. However it does not alter the fact that for a major product development like dual layered media your going to need a major optical PRODUCER behind it. With Sony saying not yet, and HP suffering financial difficulties, it looks like it might not happen yet for DVD+RW.

    Again I don't dispute this. What I'm saying is Philips is developing the PROCESS of how a dual layered drive works. Pioneer have done/are doing the same. What both 'camps' are now working on is a way to mass produce this in a cheap enough way to make it viable. Once the process is determined everybody will buy up the technology and jump on the bandwagon. There is no doubt about that. The point I was making though is that Pioneer feel confident they can find viable solution dispite Sony saying it's not currently possible.

    Maybe Pioneer will fail or maybe HP will succeed or maybe Sony will find corners that can be cut - time will tell. But right here, right now it's look positive for a dual layered DVD-R disk which was the point of my original post.
     
  8. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Remember too that the RW Alliance hasn't a good track record on +RW/+R;

    * First attempt at +RW discs failed, the spec never made it, Philips went back to the drawing board. Pioneer went ahead with its format relatively trouble free with no delays.

    * Then +RW had 2-3 years of trade show demonstrations and product announcements before +RW appeared.

    * +R wasn't finished in time to go with +RW hardware (remember at this point DVD-R had been around for 3 years already!).

    * In a desperate attempt to ensure sales went to +RW instead of Pioneers DVD-RW AND DVD-R, Philips/RW Alliance promoted "easy and free firmware upgrades" to allow +R to be used when the spec was finished, around 4 years after Pioneer successfully designed and sold DVD-R.

    * Firmware upgrades were a complete lie, all the statements were withdrawn from marketing sites, and they denied all knowledge of ever saying this. Websites from owners sprung up all over the place with scanned copies of boxes and leaflets that told of free firmware upgrades. Others found the manufacturers websites cached on the Internet. HP lost a class action lawsuit against them in the states over these lies.

    * Philips +RW/+R set top recorders are unreliable and troublesome, disc errors and other problems plague many owners, even 4 generations on the problems have not been resolved, this isn't new technology anymore and there is no excuse for these problems.

    * No other major ranking manufacturers support +RW/+R in set-tops (Sony supports +RW but no +R, and like others has stripped +RW of all its features), the dish them cheap Taiwanese manufacturers are the only ones showing support for the format (read cheap licensing offers from Philips to kick start the market), even then they haven't invested any R&D, but instead use one of a few off the shelf reference designs. To make +RW reliable, they have stripped off all or most of the linear editing features that were its only selling points.

    Pioneer was able to recoup their huge R&D costs by selling its first products and DVD media at high prices, a perk of being first to market with a working product. Philips on the other hand had to compete with a market that had already gone to mass production at cheap prices, and had no honeymoon period to recoup R&D costs, and Philips as a company has some series financial problems.

    My money goes to Pioneer in this race. Philips will appear to reach there first with trade show demos, numerous press releases from them, HP and Ricoh etc. Many months will pass before these are readily available to buy. In contrast Pioneer will make a product announcement later than most, and then a few weeks afterwards you will be able to buy hardware and media.

    Pioneer’s record has been no hype, just products. This may not be a good thing as hype and marketing is what sells these days. For me I’d rather pay for a well-designed and stable product, and not pay for marketing expenses.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  9. GadgetObsessed

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    Will dual layer disks require a new generation od DVD recorders to get the double capacity?

    Also, is dual layer recording only going to be provided for +/-R and not +/-RW?

    I have a Sky+ at present and would like a DVD recorder but with all formats limited to only 2 hours (of what I regard) of good quality recordings per re-writeable disk - it seems like a bit of a waste of time. To me there is no point of time shifting if you have such a small capacity.
     
  10. Rasczak

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    Yes - you'll need a new DVD recorder. To be honest it's unlikely to happen for set-top recorders as the PC drives will need to appear first and they would then be built into set-tops. With BluRay products already being lined up for Winter 05 it's unlikely to happen in time to make products viable.

    The benefit it will bring is for those people who author on the PC. You will be able to prepare your data as you do now (for example edit on his machine, use Flexible Record to maximise picture quality etc, and then copy across to the PC) and then you'll be able to author on the new disks. Obviously you'd use multiple 4.7GB disks to hold the programmes you are looking to put on the dual layer disk.

    An example...
    You decide you want to archive 4 x 42 minute episodes on a new dual layer DVDR. This equates to 168 minutes. You now do some calculations. In rough terms layer 2 will give around 70% the capacity of layer 1 (depending whose PR you read). Thus you use your existing DVD-RAM or DVD-RW recorder (with it's flexible record function) to archive using a Flexible record setting of around 105 minutes. Record all four episodes to seperate DVD-RAM or DVD-RW disks (conventional 4.7GB disks) using the same settings.

    You now do any editting that is required and then import into your PC authoring suite (which would obviously have to support dual layer disks). Your four 42 minute episodes will then fit onto the dual layer disk with no wasted/little wasted space (depending upon if my on the fly maths is correct :D ). Simple.
     
  11. alwyn

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    All you need to do now,is find something worth recording
     
  12. vonhosen

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  13. Rasczak

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    Yes - dual layer DVDRs are going to be a very short-lived technology. With basic BluRay disks at 25GB, several companies already demonstrating dual layer BluRay disks at 50GB and the TDK article about four layer BluRay at 100GB then 8.4GB isn't reall that impressive. Yet if they can get them out next year it will be an intrim measure to tide us over until we see the first of the BluRay machines.
     
  14. joshua_bond

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    A bit of an ignorant question but are these disks compatable with existing DVD formats? like RAM, -RW, -R
     
  15. vonhosen

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    Joshua

    Are you talking about the dual layered DVD-R or the Bluray discs ?


    The dual layer DVD-R should be playable in existing DVD-ROM & stand alone players.

    The Bluray discs will only play in a Bluray player (but these players should be backward compatible with existing DVD discs)
     
  16. Rasczak

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    Most BluRay machines will come with some form of Home Network connection as standard (e.g. WiFi) meaning compaibility will be less of an issue. The specification also requires backwards compatibility with DVD-RW,-R and DVD-RAM.

    Caddyless BluRay disks are likely to appear in the next couple of months and this will increase the likelihood of BluRay playback in new DVD players - especially as most hardware producers (bar Toshiba) are onboard. Of course the same was supposed to happen for DVDR...
     

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