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DTS query

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by steve998, Oct 20, 2005.

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  1. steve998

    steve998
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    I have a Harmon Kardon 330 amp (v happy with it by the way)

    I have been playing DTS 5.1 soundtracks, DTS ES soundtracks and DTS 6.1 soundtracks (Ie lord of the rings etc).

    I watched Master and the commander last night. great soundtrack on 5.1. However I had the option on my amp to play DTS 5.1 OR DTS + Neo.

    Does DTS + Neo 'matrix' the left and right surrounds to the rear speakers?

    I thought it sounded superb. what is the diddrence between DTS + NEO and DTS ES (matrix)

    Confused now!

    PS I use Logic 7 for converting stereo signals to 7.1, superb in comparison to DTS and Dolby (IMHO)
     
  2. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    Yes, the same as DTS ES Matrix, however the ones called ES Matrix were designed for this to happen, and are flagged to tell the reciever to engage that mode, Neo Matrix uses part of the Neo: 6 mode to create a 6th channel, very well as well.
     
  3. steve998

    steve998
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    Thanks for responding so fast,

    Great news! It sounded very good, I had to be carefull not to have the rear channels too loud or the left / right effects were too 'locked' on the rear channels though.

    So all DTS soundtracks can be 'forced' into 6.1 matrix in a similar way that 5.1 DD can be 'forced' into DD-EX. Great stuff.

    Steven
     
  4. skinnyfat

    skinnyfat
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    Neo6 and DTS ES Matrix are not the same.

    In simple terms :

    Neo6 is equivalent to PLII

    DTS ES is equivalent to DD EX

    DTS is the only algorithm to provide true 6.1 at this stage = DTS ES Discrete

    Neo6 and PLII upconvert stereo/mono into a pseudo 5.1/6.1 soundfield.

    ES and EX matrix have the surround back information 'matrixed' into the surround channels of a 5.1 encoded signal.
     
  5. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    I know, and so does Steve judging by his posts. Some amps call it applying Neo:6 or PLIIx to the 5.1 signal to obtain the back surround.
     
  6. Knyght_byte

    Knyght_byte
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    really? sounds odd......on my Denon 3803 if you are playing a DD or DTS soundtrack you cannot actually choose PL2 or Neo6 as far as im aware....the options dont exist (i think you can apply the other in-house DSP's tho)....unless of course you play a downmixed DD or DTS track as stereo from the DVD player, then it allows psuedo-upmixing via PL2/x or Neo6 on the amp........
    i find it hard to believe it would be any different on other amps....unless your mistaking things and mean PL2x or Neo6 allow you to obtain a 6th channel from upmixed stereo......]
    when i want 6th channel (in my case played over 2 speakers) i just go in to my surround parameter and move an option to surround back on, and in DD or DTS it will say EX or ES Matrix.......on an actual EX or 6.1 discrete disc it comes up automatically flagged......

    (you also have 2 versions of PL2 and Neo6, Cinema version and Music version, they feed the sound out in different ways)
     
  7. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    And what do you think your amp does then? It uses a matrix algorithm to obtain a surround back channel. Some amps use the same algorithm as PLIIx or DTS Neo:6, and brand it as such.


    I can assure you I am not mixing this up with stereo upmixing. Think of that as 2 channel > 5 chanel +. This is the same, except 5 channel > 6 channel. My Amp doesn't brand it as PL2 or DTS Neo, but some do. Your amp is not the only amp in the world. :boring:

    once again, :boring:
     
  8. Thunder

    Thunder
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    You can apply PL2x or Neo6 to a 5.1 soundtrack in order to derive the surround information more efficiently. PL2x can be applied to both Dolby 5.1 and EX soundtracks as well as DTS 5.1 and ES. As far as Im aware Neo 6 can only be applied to DTS codes. It all depends whether your amp supports this feature. For example my AV32R DP will apply PL2x to a Dolby 5.1 track but not a DTS one :) I recommend using these modes if available on your amp/processor as it does a very good job of generating a surround field :thumbsup:
     
  9. steve998

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    Hello again!

    So to conclude then chaps,

    I am experiencing a 'matrix' left and right surround sound to the rear speakers when I apply Digital DTS+NEO.

    This AV stuff is v confusing and satisfying in equal measure. As soon as I think I have 'optimised' my system, another tweak comes along :)

    This is my understanding now (with help from you all)

    DTS 5.1 (Didital 5.1 surround)
    DTS 5.1 + NEO (Digital 5.1 sound but matrixed surround surrounds to rears)
    DTS ES 6.1 (Ditital 5.1 BUT matrix encoded rear surrounds, Automatically flagged by amp and soundtrack 'designed' / mixed for this matrixed use)
    DTS ES 6.1 Discreet (Digital 6.1 sound. 6 'discreet' individual channels)

    Dolby seems 'easier' for me to get my head round. Either apply ES to soundtrack or not. Some films designed for DD ES (ie Starwars)

    My feeble mind has melted now
     
  10. Knyght_byte

    Knyght_byte
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    well your a friendly person arnt you, did it take many lessons in being patronising and condescending to be this good?

    So i wasnt aware that some amps take a DD signal and then decide to use the DPL2 instead of the DD side of things to do a 6.1 effect (likewise with DTS)...you gotta admit, it sounds odd, why use whats supposedly inferior to do the job (PL2/neo6 vs DD/DTS decoding).....oh well, guess i better go hang myself for not being omnipotent and imbibed with all encompassing knowledge......

    :suicide:
     
  11. Knyght_byte

    Knyght_byte
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    now you i say thankyou to for correcting me in a nice positive friendly way

    :clap: :thumbsup:
     
  12. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    i am a friendly person actually, however i didnt like the way you "assumed" i was getting mixed up and decided to put me straight when you were in fact patchy on the details. the amp doesnt reprocess the whole signal, just the rears.
     
  13. Knyght_byte

    Knyght_byte
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    lets see, i said

    'i find it hard to believe it would be any different on other amps....unless your mistaking things and mean PL2x or Neo6 allow you to obtain a 6th channel from upmixed stereo......'

    now unless my understanding of the English language is faulty, saying 'i find it hard to believe' doesnt mean i am saying 'no other amp will be different from my Denon'.............and 'unless your mistaking things' doesnt mean i am saying 'you are mixing things up guaranteed, you are confused, i know everything!'

    or in other words, i wasnt assuming you HAD mixed up, i was questioning WHETHER you MIGHT have mixed up.........it happens plenty of times, people get mixed up on what they are saying, and if people dont query this then those mix ups lead to bigger mix ups sometimes.....

    besides, you still took a rather pretentious approach in response with the boring smilies.......was there a need for that? could you not have just responded like the other guy did, confirm where i was in error and do it without the 'i have no desire to entertain you at all anymore' approach?
     
  14. skinnyfat

    skinnyfat
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    DTS + NEO is derived when the processor/reciever applies an algorithm to a 5.1 track to output either 6.1 or 7.1.

    With DTS ES the rear channel already exists and does not need to be 'made up' as such only decoded from the disc.

    The confusion I think comes in because you CAN apply the NEO6 algorithm to an ES disc. (why I'm not quite sure :confused: )
     
  15. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    I think that was pretty clear.

    I probably could of responded like the other guy did, but i felt like you were rubbishing my above claim, so didn't. :)
     
  16. skinnyfat

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    I was answering the posters question and didn't want to caught up in your bun-fight :rotfl:
     
  17. steve998

    steve998
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    And i was worried that no one would post a reply to my query!

    Thanks for everyones help.

    Cheers and have a good weekend everyone.
     
  18. Thunder

    Thunder
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    Because PL2X with regards to Dolby EX and Neo6 with regards to DTS ES uses a more advanced algo to derive the surround information. Which is generally why it sounds better than using the plain vanilla Doldy EX and DTS ES decode modes :thumbsup:
     
  19. skinnyfat

    skinnyfat
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    While this is true, what is the need to apply an algorothm to a sound track which already has discrete surround information contained in it, which is the way the sound engineers intended the movie to sound. Obviously its a personal preference at the end of the day but I dont feel the need, nor do I think that applying PLIIx to say, a Star wars movie will improve the way the movie sounds. Again just my opinion. (going home to put Star wars on and test) :D :rotfl:
     
  20. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    star wars is 6.1 DD EX

    The reason is that anything that comes out of both your rear speakers, will sound, to you, like it is coming from directly behind you. (think beginning of saw, in non EX, voice comes out both LS and RS, with EX algorithm switched on, it comes out the surr. back and sounds miles better). Using the surround back(s) directly behind you, it not only improves off axis sounds, but allows more direct steering, even on non-encoded 5.1 tracks. I like it, but don't usually have it on for 5.1, especially DTS 5.1, don't know why!
     
  21. Supersonic

    Supersonic
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    Good info - am off for a play around with Neo etc. as I have a 7.1 system to set up and am itching to hear the differences applying the different matrixing algos. I have two surround rear speakers and want to get the best-sounding 'centre image' I can.

    Wasn't it good fun to see someone picking up Knyght-byte on his 'I know better than all' posting style?! "A little knowledge is dangerous" seems to be very true.

    Last thing: surround rears - two to the left and right of seating position facing forwards or one in the middle above seating postion facing forwards (or down)?!
     
  22. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    i quite like using one surround back, but that is an old centre speaker so designed for it. best thing is surrounds directly left and right of you, and surr. backs directly behind you facing forwards, imo
     
  23. Dfour

    Dfour
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    OK Im closing this thread as I think its going off topic and want no more 'bun fights'

    Supersonic if you would be kind enough to post your query on the speaker foums if you want more info about rear speaker positioning. Alternatively do a search on the subject in the speaker forum.

    Dfour
    Moderator
     
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