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DTS-ES Discrete or not??

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by Jim Robson, Jun 9, 2001.

  1. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    This DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete Software issue is a joke. I'm terribly confused (and that's not very difficult!). Living in the UK I usually buy Region One discs as Americans and Canadians seem to get a better deal, soundwise than we Brits. The manufacturers have made it all terribly complicated! Previously we just had to worry about the discs being anamorphic and being enhanced for widescreen TV's. Now we have to struggle to find out if the disc is 5.1, (DD or DTS) or 6.1 (or 7.1?) or matrix or discrete!!! Groan!! DTS and Dolby sites are relatively unhelpful in this respect so would someone care to post an up to date and accurate list of *all* discs that have a DTS-ES Discrete soundtrack? There can't be very many methinks? Even the discs themselves are unhelpful as my Region One copy of Chicken Run states that it's DTS-ES 5.1 Surround on the case and then it states that it's DTS-ES 6.1 on the disc itself. Is it matrix or discrete though??

    I've checked out the Play 247 site as I wanted to buy the DTS-ES Discrete copy of The Haunting (DreamWorks Signature Series)but their blurb just says Dolby Digital 5.1!! Even the Region 1 HCC review says "And if you're one of the lucky few with EX decoding, then there's an extra rear channel lurking somewhere in the shadows." They also don't mention a DTS sound system only " Region 1 DVD, widescreen, Dolby Digital 5.1 (Dreamworks)" Oh dear! :D :confused:!


    I'd be very much obliged if anybody could come up with the definitive list of DTS-ES Discrete Region One titles (and Region Two if there are any?). Thank you.

    Regards

    Jim :D
    Utterly :confused:

    PS I haven't even mentioned THX-EX either which would just confuse things further!!

    [ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: Jim Robson ]
     
  2. PoochJD

    PoochJD
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    JIm,

    I don't know if this wil help, but I hope it does. For Region 2, the only DTS titles we've got are:

    Gladiator (DTS 6.1)
    Chicken Run (DTS 5.1)
    Dances With Wolves (DTS 5.1)
    Se7en (DTS 6.1)
    Little Nicky (Is that correct, for that dodgy Adam Sandler film?) (DTS 5.1)

    I can't think of any other DTS titles for Region 2, though I'm sure others will correct me if my data is inaccurate.

    Pooch
     
  3. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Here are the R1 DTS discrete DVDs that I know of;

    The Haunting
    Gladiator
    Chicken Run
    Seven
    Terminator 2

    Jeff
     
  4. Guest

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    Terminator 2 U.E is DD ex and DTS es matrix soundtracks, not discrete.
     
  5. Guest

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    Other R1 disc's with Dts es (matrix) are:
    Castaway
    Pitch Black
    I tend to matrix everything (5.1) i'll probably get over it but right now i quite enjoy the presentation.

    SteveEX
     
  6. buns

    buns
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    out of interest, my gladiator dvd, well it is only dts5.1, i did wonder about this b4, but now im well peeved that i am missing a channel somehow!

    Adam
     
  7. Reiner

    Reiner
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    Buns, what region is it from? The R1 is DTS ES (according to the menu where you select the soundtrack) while e.g. the R4 copy is 5.1 only.
    I must however admit that I cannot 100% confirm that and rely on the information on the disc as I don't have a Ex/Es compatible system.

    BTW: Wasn't the idea of DTS ES 6.1 (discrete) that it also contains the matrix to be backwards compatible?
    I.e. in a matrix system the discrete track is discarded while in a true 6.1 system the matrix is extracted and replaced by the discrete channel.
    So what do we need a matrix only soundtrack for?

    [ 10-06-2001: Message edited by: Reiner ]
     
  8. PaulBoy

    PaulBoy
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    Dont know how "definative" the list on Stuart Robinsons site is but it looks pretty good to me ... www.smr-home-theatre.org/Interface.html
    Hope this helps as there are a few discs I had which I didnt know were ex or es or whatever they are calling it this week :)
     
  9. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    Thank you to Pooch, Jeff, Steve and Paul for your input, From your answers it would seem that this issue *is* confusing for us all! I think Buns and Reiner have both come up with interesting points too. I almost know what my Region 1 copy of Gladiator is (I also *think* that the Region 2 copy has a lesser sound system choice than the R1). It says so on the R1 disc itself (DTS-ES 6.1), the audio selection screen (DTS-ES Digital Surround) and on the packaging (DTS-ES 6.1 Surround). It also says (confusingly!) that "Dolby Digital and DTS tracks contain up to 6.1 channels of discrete audio". I therefore presume that from this carefully hidden small print that the disc *is* DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 Surround Sound!! Fine, just what I'm looking for.

    Now my Region 1 copy of SEVEN (Platinum Series) quite clearly states on the packaging (albeit in very small writing) that "DTS-ES plays in discrete 6.1 channels on DTS-ES Discreet (their spelling!) 6.1 decoders." It also states further up in slightly larger writing that "Dolby EX 5.1, DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 and Stereo Surround Sound." On the disc label it just says DTS-ES and on the Audi Selection screen it says English DTS ES Surround.

    Is there any wonder I'm confused. What I wonder now (after my ramblings) is, have I confused most of you as well??? ;)

    It may seem unimportant to most of you but as I've just splashed out £2,500 on a Denon AVC-A1SE (BTW I'm REALLY enjoying it!) I obviously want to hear it revving at 18,500rpm like a Formula One Ferrari, McLaren/Mercedes or BMW/Williams!! If I don't have a DTS-ES Discrete disc I'm only hearing things as a 720bhp V-8 rather than an 850bhp V-10!! They both sound wonderful but one is better than the other!

    Regards

    Jim :D

    Perhaps I could e-mail someone (but who?) to suggest a more intuitive system of sound marking on the DVD software? Does anyone have any e-mail address suggestions for people who would take notice and perhaps implement some improvements?

    [ 10-06-2001: Message edited by: Jim Robson ]
     
  10. Confucius

    Confucius
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    The following would avoid any confusion:

    DTS 6.1
    DTS 5.1 ES
    DTS 5.1

    DD 5.1 EX
    DD 5.1
    DD 5.0
    DD 4.1
    etc, etc..
    but including:
    DD 2.0 DPL
    DD 2.0 Stereo
    DD 2.0 Mono

    All the above are short, simple and accurate (unless EiV use them of course)
     
  11. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    Confucious!

    Yes, I think it's up to the manufacturers to write clearly *exactly* what it says it does, on the tin! For me the sound is at least 50% of the pleasure of the film, if not more. I'm not interested in the extras or making ofs. I like to *believe* in the film and the story not to spend my time looking for the seams! I don't want to know that the auditorium in Gladiator (or the ocean liner in Titanic) was fake, I want to believe it's 100% real!

    Is DTS-ES Discrete just another name for DTS 6.1 or do DTS use this 6.1 on their matrix offerings too? What exactly do they mean when the sound is marked (on the software and packaging) as DTS-ES only? See what I mean? There's no way of telling if it's Discrete or not!

    The same goes for Dolby Digital or more correctly THX-EX in the home, as they still seem to call it Dolby Digital 5.1. The copy of The Haunting which I rented last night (remembering that it didn't come with the original, manufacturer's case) didn't mention that it was EX anywhere but I'm told that it was EX, as mentioned earlier in my posts.

    Regards

    Jim :D
     
  12. Family Guy

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    If you look on the back of the DVD cases, you will see a diagram of 5 speakers in the audio available box. If the film is in ES DISCRETE, there will be a sixth box in the middle of the rear 2 and it will be solid, ie. filled in. If the soundtrack is in the matrix flavour, the centre box will be hollow. Confusing I know. And not all companies use this method. Look on the Gladiator R1 and you will see this example.
    Also The Road To El Dorado R1 has it on the DTS soundtrack. (Matrix only).
     
  13. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    Hi Steve!

    According to http://store.dtsonline.com/dvd-frames.html

    Terminator 2 - Ultimate Edition (Artisan)**
    is indeed DTS-ES Discrete!

    **DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete Surround, also compatible with 6.1 Matrix Surround and 5.1 Digital Surround.

    It would appear that I'm close to finding a definitve list of the available R1 titles with DTS-ES Discrete and it's not a very long one!

    Regards

    Jim :D

    [ 10-06-2001: Message edited by: Jim Robson ]
     
  14. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Cross T2 off the list, the DTS list must be wrong because I have just checked the DVD.

    Jeff
     
  15. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    Well, if DTS themselves don't know which discs have DTS-ES 6.1 Dicrete tracks on them, what chance have the rest of us got??

    Regards

    Jim :D
     
  16. Guest

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    T2 UE is absolutely, unequivocally, without doubt Dts es matrix
    Final word
     
  17. Guest

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    If your Denon is set up correctly then you can see it (T2) is matrixed es as the special signal l.e.d with be lit and the unit stays in "es matrix" mode, it does at least on mine.
     
  18. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    Hi Steve!

    I wasn't really doubting you word but because DTS only have 5 of Region 1 DTS-ES Discrete titles on their site and I can't believe that they could have got it wrong! Still all it needed was for the input person to have a staccato finger***** and you get two** instead of one*. I was wanting to buy T2 just to hear the Discrete sound but I'm not very keen on Arnold so I won't bother! I have, however, ordered R1 version of The Haunting so I'll have all 4 Discrete R1 discs! I'd have been *very* disappointed if I'd bought it and it wasn't Discrete. Thanks for saving me £16 or so!

    Regards and thanks again.

    Jim :D

    PS What a pity Exmouth is so far away from Hove as you seem to know what you're talking about. You could have popped round and set it all up for me!!

    [ 10-06-2001: Message edited by: Jim Robson ]
     
  19. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Jim,

    If want 1 more discrete DVD you could try Sleepy Hollow. I think that both the French and German versions have a DTS ES discrete track, hopefully one of those has a English DTS ES discrete track. I already have the R1 version (DD EX) so I haven't fully looked into this.

    Jeff
     
  20. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    Hi Army Bloke!

    Yes, it's very clear on the back of Gladiator and just as you stated with the extra box being solid. The Dolby Digital 5.1 track also has the 6th box but it's empty. Seven, of course has no diagrams to guide you, but just has tiny writing to denote the sound tracks! You're saying that the box would be empty if the track was in DTS-ES but solid in DTS-ES Discrete? If we go by this rule (and bearing in mind what I just said about the DD 6th box above) a Dolby Digital EX track would have a solid 6th box as well or is this solid 6th box specifically reserved for Discrete only (which DD/THX don't have at the moment)? On my R1 copy of Chicken Run the DTS-ES track is obviously matrixed (as the 6th box is hollow) but the Dolby Digital 5.1 section doesn't even have a diagram (it does for the Dolby Surround one!!). They just seem to have no specific rules to adhere to.

    Am I making sense here or just tying myself in knots?

    Regards

    Jim :D
     
  21. Family Guy

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    Jeff,
    R1 Sleepy Hollow, EX?
    Are you sure?
    As for the French ES version, I take it it's in French and not English with subtitles?
    I have a friend in Germany who may be able to get me a copy.
     
  22. Jeff

    Jeff
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  23. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    I just ordered The Haunting (Region One) from Play247 in DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete. On their website it definitely shows the case as the Signature Series in Widescreen but they now tell me that it's only Dolby Digital 5.1. What's going on here? Are they lying to me or do they have the wrong picture of the disc case on the website? Is it just possible that they only stock the OLD version of this disc. In that case I thought the Signature Series was the DTS-ES Discrete disc and the DD 5.1 was the non-Signature Series? They are also advertising Castaway as DTS-ES 6.1 but can't tell me if this is Discrete or Matrixed. According to another forum Castaway is matrixed. What a bloody mess this is! :mad: I knew as soon as I spoke to 2 different people at Play247 that they didn't have a clue what I was speaking about! :mad: Give me strength!! Even DTS don't appear to know whaich discs have their premier format encoded on them!

    Regards

    Jim :D

    PaulBoy you are not mad. Here's a quote from Bob Tomalski's article on the Denon AVC-A1SE "OK this is a complex product. Yet some things are just too easy to get wrong. Once calibrated, I sat back to enjoy The Haunting - one of the few DTS-ES Discrete (R1) DVDs available.

    The silence was deafening. The cables were connected correctly. The front panel LED showed 'lock' - a signal was being received. So why no sound? It was because I neglected to check the input mode. Buried in the manual, it explains this is best set to 'Auto' so any surround signal is decoded correctly. D'oh! Somehow I had set it manually for PCM stereo, hence no DTS decoding."

    AND

    "Next on the list is SB (surround back) Flag Detect. It's essential to set this correctly. Switched on, the rear back only works with software on which a special ID code is recorded. As yet, few DVDs carry this signal. Switched off (as recommended by Denon), you have two further choices. With 'Non matrix' the signal delivered to the back is the same as the side surrounds - effectively maintaining regular 5.1 decoding. THX Surround mode, meanwhile, decodes the 'extra' channel buried in Dolby EX/ DTS-ES software and routes it to the back channel.

    My advice is to set Dolby EX for all 5.1 software, regardless of it being officially 'EX/ES' or not. You often get interesting panned effects that, although unintended by the director, can prove enthralling. Purists may take the opposite view"

    Hope this helps prove your sanity even if the 3801 doesn't actually have ES Discrete it is similar in other respects? :)

    [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Jim Robson ]
     
  24. PaulBoy

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    Army Bloke ...
    The French Sleepy Hollow has DTS French & DTS English (also has both F & E DD5.1 as well) The packaging is bizarre to say the least but having heard it I WANT IT !!!!!
    Paul :D
     
  25. PaulBoy

    PaulBoy
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    The French Sleepy Hollow has DTS ES (as I borrowed it from a M8 recently) I'm trying to get a copy but the site he got his is sold out (inconsiderate bast!rds)
    BTW I wired my Denon 3801 up for ES & EX over the weekend & got really confused ...
    When you set Auto to ON it doesnt play ES & EX ... When you set it to OFF it does ?
    Am I just thick ? Or have Denon arsed it up ?
    Paul :confused:
     

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