DTS 24/96 ready / Burr Browns / External In

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by craynerd, Oct 24, 2005.

  1. craynerd

    craynerd
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    Hi guys

    I got some advice a bit ago with regards to me buying a dvd player with cd playback capability to a degree of quality acceptable for an AV amp. I have the Denon 2106 and the advice i`ve been given is to get something that is dts 24/96 ready and with bur brown codecs!!

    I dent understand any of that, so i`m quite confused, can someone explain exactly what that means?

    Also i got told my amp has an external in so i`ll be able to change between ******* ?? something, what will i be able to change between. He said something like the amps codecs and the players codecs, would that make sense?

    Also, even after all the conversations on here regarding this dvd and cd player separate or combined subject, he said an AV amp will only be able to play at a certain quality probably no better than a good quality dvd player. His advice was to ignore the 1920 and go for the other higher 2910 models.

    Any help appreciated, to make further sense of it all!

    Chris
     
  2. Dankeech

    Dankeech
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    Ok Craynerd, think I can help you out on this one...

    1st of all, pretty much every DVD Player will play Audio CD's, but DVD-Capability is the priority on the manufacturers list when producing a DVD Player.

    A Standalone CD Player will generally sound much better because it has been manufactured with that as it's primary purpose.

    Some DVD Players have very good Audio CD playback, as the manufacturer decides to use decent audio chips etc in it. Burr Brown Chips are amongst the best of these. If you get a DVD player with Burr Brown chips in it, then the manufacturer has spent some extra on making sure the Audio CD capabilities are improved.

    I upgraded a couple of weeks ago fro the NAD T524 to the NAD T562 (w/Burr Brown Chips) and noticed the difference in quality between the two when it came to CD playback.

    As for 48/96Khz, this is the sampling rate that is used. The sampling rate is literally how many samples per second produced, either 48,000/second (48Khz), or 96,000 respectively. The higher the sampling rate, the better the audio quality, however, this really really depends on just what is being put through it, say for a decent player with only 48Khz may outperform a cheap player with 96Khz feature.

    Regards to the 'External In' question, here goes:

    Movies are mostly stored in multi-channel formats. Instead of just two-channel stereo, DVD's are more often encoded in a multi-channel format (you may have heard of DTS, Dolby Digital etc).

    The signal is on the DVD in say DTS format, but something has to decode that multichannel signal to the seperate channels/speakers themselves.
    That's where your decoder comes in. This can be either on the DVD player or the A/V reciever/Amp, or both, but you will only use one decoder.

    Check your A/V reciever has DTS/Dolby Digital Decoder. It may have DTS/Dolby Digital markings on the front, or a quick look in the manual should help.
    If it does, then you can supply it with a digital signal (through the optical (or digital coaxial) connections on the back of your DVD player into the A/V Reciever.
    These two connections on the back of your player are the only connections that can pass a digital (multichannel formats included) signal the the A/V reciever to be decoded.

    On the other had, if you get a DVD player with DTS / Dolby Digital decoding etc, you can connect the analogue audio outputs to the Analogue Audio Inputs on your Amp (Normally: Front L, Front R, Centre, Rear L, Rear R).
    By doing this, you are feeding the A/V reciever Fully Decoded signal and are using the DVD Player's internal Decoder.

    Which one is better?, this'd be a case of listening to them and seeing which on eis better. Note that if you want to try out the DVD player supplying the decoded signal through that 5 or 6 outputs on the back of it, you will need cabling to do this, whereas supplying the A/V reciever with a digital signal through the Optical or Digital Coaxial takes only one cable.


    As for recommendations of players, I haven't a great experience. I love my NAD DVD Player, but have little to compare it to except much cheaper ones.

    Hope this post helps.

    Dan.
     
  3. Cable Monkey

    Cable Monkey
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    He is telling you to consider spending more. To listen to DVD you would normally connect player to amp digitally and let the amp do the decoding. To listen to multichannel music you let the player do the decoding connecting the 5.1 outs on the player to the 5.1 ins on the amp. Thus the better your player, the higher quality your surround music playback. Please PM me. I am familiar with your setup and can point you in the right direction regarding your options.
     
  4. Dankeech

    Dankeech
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    Cable Monkey:
    I have DVD connected to amp via optical and have decoder available on both my DVD player and on my Amp.
    I currently only have Stereo mode and Enhanced Stereo1 (fronts & rears) and EARS (NAD's proprietary virtual-surround mode).
    Is there any benefit of plugging my DVD players 5.1 outs to the Amp's 5.1 inputs?
    If there's anyway you could post or PM me some info too, it'd be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Dan.
     
  5. Supersonic

    Supersonic
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    For Craynerd's benefit, it's probably worth saying that (as far as I understand it) DVD-Audio and SACD music must be output in analogue via the player's multi-channel outputs. That means you can't get the multi-channel, high-definition sound out of the player digitally.

    My understanding is that this is done in order to comply with the current SACD and DVD-Audio specifications (an attempt to combat piracy?).
     
  6. Jase

    Jase
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    Your 2106 has DTS 96/24 decoding onboard. There are hardly any discs at all that have this format so you're not missing much anyway.
     
  7. nhart

    nhart
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    Supersonic,

    I think that some early model DVD players did not down sample the higher DVD-A bit rate - allowing full 96/24 output. I remember reading about this in Hi Fi Choice back in the mid 90's. The message was to grab them whilst you could as things would change once DVD took off.

    You may be able to find some early Denon and Marantz models which you can hook up via the Coax. I imagine the sound would be awsome if used as a Transport to feed a modern DVD-A decoder.

    NH
     
  8. Gary_W

    Gary_W
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    Not quite the case.

    DVD audio can be sent over HDMI 1.1, so is being sent in digital format. It can also be sent over Denon link. Pretty sure it can be sent over firewire as well if player and amp support it.

    SACD can be sent over Denon Link 3. Not sure if it can be sent any other way other than analogue?

    I'm not 100% familiar with the 2106, but as far as I know it has neither Denon link nor HDMI so in Craynerd's case he has no choice but to go with using the analogue inputs. He can, of course, use optical or coax for 2 channel CD input or he can go analogue from the player depending on whether the player or amps DACS are the better quality.

    As far as choosing a DVD player goes, on paper, the 2910 has posher DACs than the 1920. However, there have been several posts on here from people that have not rated the 2910 for audio performance and several people that have rated the 1920 as pretty good in this respect. Both are subjective opinions, but do make you wonder whether it will be worth the extra bucks here. Is it great advice to partner a £350 amp with a £600 dvd player? With HD DVD coming, I would find it hard to spend that much on something I'll get (at best) 18 months use from before the upgrade.

    I bought a 1920 over the weekend. Maybe I'm easily pleased, but it seems to be perfroming better with CD's than my 4 year old Marantz CD player. Either the Marantz was a stinker, the 1920 is pretty good or my ears are getting older. Probably all 3. DVD audio and SACD are very nice over the analogue feeds, even though my amp is past its best. So things can only get better. Coupled with the fact that the pictures look very nice indeed, it plays anything I've thrown at it and it cost little over £200 and you have a good little player for the money and IMO a more than able match for your 2106.

    Gary
     
  9. Jase

    Jase
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    Firewire will transfer both DVD Audio and SACD digitally. :)
     
  10. VirusKiller

    VirusKiller
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    Unencrypted?
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    HDMI 1.2 will also do SACD DSD now though no compatible products yet. Might even be possible with a firmware upgrade as well.

    BB is just one of many good DAC supplier.
    96/24 is not worth worrying about, DTS is just fine.
     
  12. craynerd

    craynerd
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    holy Sh!T !!! I think my head is going to explode! I`m not normally slow on the uptake ut this is going way over my head!!!!
     
  13. Supersonic

    Supersonic
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    This is what the forums are for - learning! Thanks everyone.

    I had no idea there were devices out there that did transfer SACD and DVD-A digitally until now. It did somehow slip my mind that HDMI isn't only for video though. Hadn't heard of firewire doing SACD (DSD) either. Food for thought for future kit...
     
  14. Gary_W

    Gary_W
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    It's not that bad. It just sounds it :) Please forgive me if you know all / some of this already....

    Music is stored on a disc in digital format. Before you can hear it, it must be converted to an analogue signal and then amplified so as it can drive your speakers.

    This conversion is done in a thing called a DAC. Stands for 'digital to analogue converter' and does pretty much what its name suggests.

    This conversion can be done in the player itself. If that is the case, you take analogue leads out of said player and put them straight into analogue inputs on a receiver / amplifier. The amp will purely make this (already analogue) signal bigger so as it can drive your speakers. If you have a suitably expensive CD player or DVD player, the DACS in the player will be of a decent quality and you may like to connect the system via a decent analogue interconnect.

    If you wish, the conversion can be done at the receiver end. If you do this, you are sending the stream of 1's and 0's along a digital cable (either a single coax or an optical cable). Some higher end players can do a higher bitrate and have more stable transfer using either firewire or Denonlink. These are just 2 high quality ways of transfering digital data. Your amp doesn't have either of these inputs so no problem. Another method of transfering digital audio is as part of the HDMI signal. Again, your amp doesn't have this input so not of concern to you in your current situation.

    On my own set up, I have a set of AE Evo 3 fronts driven by a Marantz 5200 receiver. The CD player is a Marantz CD67 mkII OSE and the DVD player is a Denon 1920. None of it is exactly high end gear. In my situation, CD's sound better with the sources doing the conversion and the receiver getting fed an analogue source. Both the CD player and the DVD player sound pretty good for CD playback. The 1920 has a wider soundstage, the CD67 is slightly warmer. It would be nice to have the warmth and the soundstage but both are enjoyable.

    I am hoping for a new amp soon, and maybe then the differences would stand out to the extent where a I can get the benefit from a better quality CD source than I now have. I could not justify this at the moment, and I doubt you will be able to tell £400 worth of difference between 2 DVD players either with a £350 amp, especially as precious little of that £400 will have been spent improving the 2 channel sound quality. I may be wrong, but give yourself a lengthy audition with YOUR amp and speakers with the gear in question before overspending here.

    Gary
     
  15. Jase

    Jase
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    Encrypted. To play copy protected discs the player and amp must be compatible with DTCP (Digital Transmission Content Protection).
     
  16. craynerd

    craynerd
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    I thank you all! so much!

    It sounds daft since it is obvious to you guys, but i really didnt understand that digital needed to be converted to analog!!! I had in my head this theory that digital was best and everything should always be fed via digital!

    So say i had a denon 1920, i would connect via hdmi to tv, digital coxial to the amp for 5.1 dolby surround and then phono out for stereo audio using the players dacs?

    Chris

    Thanks again
     
  17. Gary_W

    Gary_W
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    Hi Craynerd.

    Glad the explanations here have helped. It's a great site. Not so long ago I could not get my head around bass management in a receiver, but the good folks here soon cured me of that.

    HDMI to TV is a dead cert; your amp does not have an HMDI socket so there is nothing else to consider here.

    Connecting a digital coax from the 1920 to the 1906 will actually route dolby digital 5.1, DTS and 2 channel stereo. You do not necessarily need an analogue interconnect from player to amp for the purpose of CD playback, though you would be wise to try analogue vs digital on the cable front and see if your ears can tell the difference with this combination of equipment. Go with whichever you prefer.

    In my setup, the DACS in the DVD player seem to do a better job than those in the amp, so I'm going analogue for CD playback. I'm hoping to update to a Denon 3806 receiver when they are released (well, after a healthy audition anyway :) ) and, as the DACS quality in the receiver should then outstrip that of the DVD player then I'll give the digital route a try once more. In theory it should sound better but time will tell.

    For SACD and DVD audio, you have no choice but to use 3 pairs of analogue interconnects and going to the 7.1 channel input on the amp. These will also output 2 channel stereo just fine, and there is a (very basic) bass management adjustment here should you wish for 2 front speakers + sub to be used for CD's.

    Gary
     

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