DSU vs DTS NX for 2.0 content / 5.1 speaker layout

KillaBee

Novice Member
I know this topic was discussed many times before all over the internet. however, rarely if at all I saw any reference on two uses cases that are in my interest. so i am hoping to get an answer here:

Use case 1: Stereo 2.0 content with a 5.1/7.1 speakers layout
Use case 2: rather to use an upmix on 5.1 content in a 5.1 speaker layout.

1. what’s different about Dolby Surround and Neural:X on my specific use case? i.e. Which one works better with Stereo 2.0 content with a 5.1/7.1 speakers layout?

2. if i have a 5.1 speaker layout, is there any added value using the Dolby Surround upmixer / DTS Neural:X upmixer for a 5.1 content (e.g. DD / DTS)?
and if so , which one would most likely result best (5.1 content on 5.1 speaker layout with what upmix mode/technology)? would it enhance anything?

p.s. I am using Marantz SR5015 AV receiver
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
They basical do the same thing. Which you use or prefer is up to you. DSU if employed within an Atmos setup is supposed to create a pseudo Atmos interpretation of the audio being portrayed, while NX would create a pseudo interpretation of DTS:X. In setups devoid of the additional Atmos/DTS:X speakers, the upmixing will simply extend to the speakers present. THink of them as being like the older Pro LOgic and Neo:X upmixing modes.
 

KillaBee

Novice Member
i don't understand .is there or isn't there any added value using the Dolby Surround upmixer / DTS Neural:X upmixer for a 5.1 content (e.g. DD / DTS) when i only have a 5.1 speaker layout?

i thought that that is where DTS VX / Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization supposed to do...
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It is a matter of personal preference. In my opinion no, there's no benefit and I'd prefer a discrete 5.1 interpretation of the discrete 5.1 source as opposed to it being reinterpreted in alignment with DSU or DNX algorithms. I do however use the upmixing to engage the height speakers in my 5.1.2 setup when dealing with discrete 5.1 or 7.1 sources.

Height virtualisation doesn't upmix, it creates virtual representations of the height speakers. You'd still need to be portaying discrete Atmos or DTS:X encoded sources via the virtual speakers or using the appropriate upmixing reative to the virtual speaker processing in order to engage those virtual speakers. Upmixing and virtual speakers are 2 different entities and not the one and the same thing.
 
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KillaBee

Novice Member
ok i think I got what you mean, so I'll change the question to a more pin point situation..

my speaker layout is a simple 5.1 and I got the Marantz SR5015 AV receiver which can support almost whatever I want (supports all modes).

To get the most sound experience (I am mainly focusing on movies, I very seldom listen to music) on my 5.1 speakers layout, what technology I should set in my AV receiver:

Two uses cases (don't forget my speaker layout is 5.1):
1. Content is Stereo 2.0: to use the DSU / DTSN:X or the Dolby head virtualization / DTSV:X?
2. content is DD/DTS 5.1: to use DSU / DTSN:X or the Dolby head virtualization / DTSV:X?

NOTE: I am not asking which to use the Dolby or DTS, but rather what solution that both Dolby and DTS offer that aimed for the same thing.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Content in stereo then yes, I'd suggest using the upmixing as it may prove more appealing while doing so. Results will vary though dependant upon the types of content you are portraying.

If however dealing with discrete 5.1 or 7.1 sources and if only portraying this via a 5.1 stuo then I'd suggest you are as well catered for by portraying said audio sans any additional Dolby Surround or Neural:X upmixing. You may want to try engaging the Dolby Virtual Height processing relative to both discrete Atmos encoded soundtracks as well as in relation to DSU though? The same goes for the DTS virual height option in relation to decrete DTS:X encoded soundtracks or in order to utilise Neural"X to the best of its abilities relative to your systems capabilities without actually adding additional physical speakers.

I would however strongly suggest using actual physical speakers as opposed to regarding virtual representations of them as being truly comparable.

Note that the Dolby Height Virtualisation isn't applicable relative to DTS:X or Neural:X and the opposite is true of DTS's Virtual height processing. You'd need to change between these in order to portray the proprietary object prientated format or upmixing.
 
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KillaBee

Novice Member
Content in stereo then yes, I'd suggest using the upmixing as it may prove more appealing while doing so. Results will vary though dependant upon the types of content you are portraying.

If however dealing with discrete 5.1 or 7.1 sources and if only portraying this via a 5.1 stuo then I'd suggest you are as well catered for by portraying said audio sans any additional Dolby Surround or Neural:X upmixing. You may want to try engaging the Dolby Virtual Height processing relative to both discrete Atmos encoded soundtracks as well as in relation to DSU though? The same goes for the DTS virual height option in relation to decrete DTS:X encoded soundtracks or in order to utilise Neural"X to the best of its abilities relative to your systems capabilities without actually adding additional physical speakers.

I tried reading this part like 6 timers over and over and I did not understand what you trying to say.
I think some of the the English words confused me so much it screwed up my whole understanding of this paragraph.
as it possible to repeat this but using a more simple description?
if possible avoid using the words : discrete, portraying, stuo & catered. as those 4 caused me not to understand anything no matter how much I tried.....

maybe to make it simple:
Two uses cases (don't forget my speaker layout is 5.1):
1. Content is Stereo 2.0: to use the DSU / DTSN:X or the Dolby head virtualization / DTSV:X = ????
2. content is DD/DTS 5.1: to use DSU / DTSN:X or the Dolby head virtualization / DTSV:X? = ????
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
If dealing with sources actually encoded with 5.1 or 7.1 channels of audio and if only playing this via a 5.1 setup then I'd suggest you are as well catered for by playing said audio without any additional Dolby Surround or Neural:X upmixing. You may want to try engaging the Dolby Virtual Height processing relative to both actual Atmos encoded soundtracks as well as in relation to DSU though? The same goes for the DTS virtual height option in relation to DTS:X soundtracks or in order to utilise Neural"X upmixing to the best of its abilities relative to your systems capabilities without actually adding additional physical speakers.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It should maybe also be noted that if you've only a 5.1 setup and if the source is 5.1 or 7.1 in nature, upmixing such as Dolby Surround or Neural:X will not be applied to such sources. It is only when the audio channels present within the source are fewer than the actual speakers present in your setup that such upmixing would be applied. In instances where the source has the same or more audio channels as the speakers present then the channels present will be portrayed by the actual speakers precent. Excess channels such as the back channels in 7.1 sources would be mixed down into the surround channels in a 5.1 setup.

The Dolby Surround or Neural:X upmixing would only ever be applied relative to your 5.1 setup if the source were 2 channel stereo in nature or if enabling the virtual height options. Such upmixing wouldn't othersise be applied to 5.1 or 7.1 sources.
 

KillaBee

Novice Member
If dealing with sources actually encoded with 5.1 or 7.1 channels of audio and if only playing this via a 5.1 setup then I'd suggest you are as well catered for by playing said audio without any additional Dolby Surround or Neural:X upmixing. You may want to try engaging the Dolby Virtual Height processing relative to both actual Atmos encoded soundtracks as well as in relation to DSU though? The same goes for the DTS virtual height option in relation to DTS:X soundtracks or in order to utilise Neural"X upmixing to the best of its abilities relative to your systems capabilities without actually adding additional physical speakers.
I feel like i was reading the same as before - still confused

let's try different approach if you don't mind, ignore what I wrote on top and let's just focus on this:

I am looking for what is the general correct approach on paper for best sound experience - focus n movies only

so on paper / in theory, can you fill in the blank??
Two uses cases (don't forget my speaker layout is 5.1):
1. Content is Stereo 2.0: to use the DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH = ?????????
2. content is 5.1: to use DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH or none = ????????????

NOTE:
ignore if it's Dolby or DTS technology, just focus on the method - e.g. DNX or DVX / DSU or DVH (from my prospective for this question: DNX & DSU are the same, so is DVX & DHV)

  • DSU = Dolby Surround upmixer
  • DNX = DTS Neural:X upmixer
  • DVH = Dolby Atmos Head Virtualization
  • DVX = DTS Virtual:X
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Only you can determine what would be best. Use whatever sounds best to you. Writing it on paper doesn't make something sound better and an individual's own preferences are subjective.

If you've a 5.1 setup then even if you set the mode to DSU or Neural:X, the receiver will only upmix the audio if it is stereo in nature. Native 5.1 or 7.1 sources will bypass the upmixing processing unless you've engage vitual height speakers. If you engage the virtual height processing. In such instances, the upmixing will create pseudo channels for the virtual speakers.

Dolby Virtual Height processing will only be applicable to Atmos sources and Dolby Surround Upmixing while Virtual:X virtual speakers are only applicable to DTS:X soundtracks or in relation to Neural:X upmixing. You cannot use Virtual:X to portray Atmos or in conjunction with Dolby Surround upmixing. You cannot use Dolby Virtual Heights processing in association with DTS:X or in conjunction with Neural:X upmixing.
 
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I think the key message for you is suck it and see. There is no right or wrong setting - if it is available then try it and see what you prefer.
 

KillaBee

Novice Member
If you'dve a 5.1 setup then even if you set the mode to DSU or Neural:X, the receiver will only upmix the audio if it is stereo in nature. Native 5.1 or 7.1 sources will bypass the upmixing processing unless you've engage vitual height speakers. If you engage the virtual height processing. In such instances, the upmixing will create pseudo channels for the virtual speakers.
OK, I understand now. so is it even possible to engage both at the same time? DNX ->DVX
same for Dolby technology respectively? does it makes sense to do both for 5.1 content, or even 2.0 content?

for 2.0 content it makes sense to enable DSU/DNX as i would get upmixing to 5.1

Dolby Virtual Height processing will only be applicable relative to Atmos sources and Dolby Surround Upmixing while Virtual:X virtual speakers are only applicable to DTS:X soundtracks or in relation to Neural:X upmixing. You cannot use Virtual:X to portray Atmos or in conjunction with Dolby Surround upmixing. You cannot use Dolby Virtual Heights processing in association with DTS:X or in conjunction with Neural:X upmixing.
DTS Virtual:X can work with any incoming multi-channel audio signal, from two-channel stereo, 5.1/7.1 channel surround sound, to immersive 7.1.4 channel audio.
I believe that the Dolby virtualization is the same.
so there is an overlap between DNX and DVX to a certain degree. as they both claim to "enhance" 2.0/5.1 audio

I think the key message for you is suck it and see. There is no right or wrong setting - if it is available then try it and see what you prefer.

this discussion/questions is currently not on testing phase, but to understand better the two solutions which one "on paper" should be used on my scenario based on the vendors intention of those technologies.
I would love to hear your input on what should I use (on paper / in theory) on those two uses cases based on the vendors intention.

fill in the blanks (remember, I got 5.1 speaker layout):
1. Content is Stereo 2.0: to use the DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH = ?????????
2. content is 5.1: to use DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH or none = ????????????
 
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this discussion/questions is currently not on testing phase, but to understand better the two solutions which one "on paper" should be used on my scenario based on the vendors intention of those technologies.
I would love to hear your input on what should I use (on paper / in theory) on those two uses cases based on the vendors intention.

fill in the blanks (remember, I got 5.1 speaker layout):
1. Content is Stereo 2.0: to use the DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH = ?????????
2. content is 5.1: to use DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH or none = ????????????

There is no fixed "intention". For Stereo sources, personally I use DSU to upmix as I have a 5.1.2 system. Although for stereo music, I listen in stereo with no upmixing.

For 5.1 sources, again I use DSU to upmix to my Dolby Atmos speakers.

Both are my choice/preference, I am sure others would choose different settings.
 

KillaBee

Novice Member
There is no fixed "intention". For Stereo sources, personally I use DSU to upmix as I have a 5.1.2 system. Although for stereo music, I listen in stereo with no upmixing.

For 5.1 sources, again I use DSU to upmix to my Dolby Atmos speakers.

Both are my choice/preference, I am sure others would choose different settings.
in your case you have 5.1.2 so it's simple, you don't have the needs of using DVX/DHV.
but my question was on my use case.
I was hoping you would comment what would you use in case you only had 5.1 like I do.
both for 5.1 content and 2.0 content (let's leave music out of this and stick to movies/films only)

1. Content is Stereo 2.0: to use the DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH = ?????????
2. content is 5.1: to use DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH or none = ????????????

Reminder: I only have 5.1 speaker layout
 
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in your case you have 5.1.2 so it's simple, you don't have the needs of using DVX/DHV.
but my question was on my use case.
I was hoping you would comment what would you use in case you only had 5.1 like I do.
both for 5.1 content and 2.0 content (let's leave music out of this and stick to movies/films only)

1. Content is Stereo 2.0: to use the DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH = ?????????
2. content is 5.1: to use DNX/DSU or the DVX/DVH or none = ????????????

Reminder: I only have 5.1 speaker layout
It doesn't really matter what I would choose, it's your system. FWIW, on 2.0 sources I would still use DSU to upmix to all speakers. For 5.1, I don't know. I would probably try DVX/DVH and see if I liked the effect or not. If not, I'd stick to straight 5.1.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
. what’s different about Dolby Surround and Neural:X on my specific use case? i.e. Which one works better with Stereo 2.0 content with a 5.1/7.1 speakers layout?
hi, just be aware with your marantz SR5015, there is a bug upmixing 2.0 material using the dolby surround upmixer,

marantz has acknowledged the issue and should have a fix by fall 2021 - oct...

so in mean time its better if use either neural X or auro3D up mixers... will find for 2ch music auro3D can do a great result aswell .
 

KillaBee

Novice Member
It doesn't really matter what I would choose, it's your system. FWIW, on 2.0 sources I would still use DSU to upmix to all speakers. For 5.1, I don't know. I would probably try DVX/DVH and see if I liked the effect or not. If not, I'd stick to straight 5.1.
so in other words, you would probably not use DNX/DSU on 5.1 content.. only try out the DVX/DHV.. correct?

hi, just be aware with your marantz SR5015, there is a bug upmixing 2.0 material using the dolby surround upmixer,

marantz has acknowledged the issue and should have a fix by fall 2021 - oct...

so in mean time its better if use either neural X or auro3D up mixers... will find for 2ch music auro3D can do a great result aswell .
I was not aware of this.. thanks for the heads up !!!!
 
so in other words, you would probably not use DNX/DSU on 5.1 content.. only try out the DVX/DHV.. correct?


I was not aware of this.. thanks for the heads up !!!!
No, I would try all options available.

The so called bug mentioned does not affect all players, strangely enough. I do not experience any issues using DSU on my Denon, so be careful of any sweeping statements.
 
Another DSur issue fixed by switching off Dynamic Volume/EQ:

 

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